Pain attunement

This keystone should be toned down to 15% more DMG opposed to its current 30%. Why? Well let's see spells have continually been buffed yet this passive left untouched. Spells at the moment do ridiculous amounts of damage given the other options and acessable crit chance/multiplier on that side of the tree plus es pools are equal to or far higher then their HP counterparts. Es has no drawbacks, don't try to tell me it does. Items are there to eliminate any and all es was designed to have to counter act the many many positives it has. This is increasingly obvious in PvP more so then pvm. HP regens a joke, flasks vs es based character DMG...irrelevant. Arenas make it ez to run and full regen es often per round even vs the fastest of players/attacks (some exceptions).

I wouldn't Nerf es nor crit itself because that's not the problem. Its PA and its interaction with an already super strong set of options/tools.

When you put all of this together its a no brainer that PA doesn't need to be boosting damage by 30%.

Es pools higher then 2h legacy kaoms users....plus block
Es regen to full life, or zealots oath cleverly built as characters with over 1000 regen per sec and 10k+ es
High crit chance/damage, high base DMG, great mobility, ranged,options for days on cwdt.
Low life comes at no cost other then casting auras which buff you further. Unique perks such as can't be ignited,unlucky damage taken etc etc.

Either nerf PA or put something on blood magic support that provides a big enough drawback for es low life. Everything HP based comes with a catch or severe handicap..es all positives. Ci melee gets melee on full,chaos immunity and the same regen + higher crit but has to stay in melee range more often then a caster. This in itself makes it fine because there's a inherit drawback. Casters are at their strongest in melee range and are tankier then any melee. Ci and hp casters do realistic DMG,though high...its fine. PA is too strong given everything else factored in.

The only downside there's ever been to crit is reflect in pvm, that's a mute point in PvP.

PA is like if melee had RT that gave 30% more DMG but can still crit. You can focus on nothing but crit,defenses and speed and be that much further ahead for free.

I'd have to disagree and I play both spellcaster and melee. Although you can get higher ES pools than life, a lower life pool can provide more effective HP due to life flasks. I also think that if you want to get 1,000 ES regen per sec, you'd have to give up quite a bit of spell damage.

I think your statement probably applies to spellcasters with very high-end/mirrored gear, but at the mid-range, from my experience, melee beats spellcasters in PVP.

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Aiur wrote:

I'd have to disagree and I play both spellcaster and melee. Although you can get higher ES pools than life, a lower life pool can provide more effective HP due to life flasks. I also think that if you want to get 1,000 ES regen per sec, you'd have to give up quite a bit of spell damage.

I think your statement probably applies to spellcasters with very high-end/mirrored gear, but at the mid-range, from my experience, melee beats spellcasters in PVP.

I have played everything. I have a HP based spell caster using a staff and rags...literally trashiest trash gear. That beats melee easily even at melee range, top melee. Point wasn't spell casters its low life PA spell casters and the fact its too strong. Spell casters ci/HP low-high gear are fine....PA low life is not.

Pain attunement is not that much overpowered, toning it down by half ? Nah.

Here's why, pain attunement HAS a drawback, you are not immune to chaos damage and lose 20% more energy shield from CI and lose approx 500 flat es from a 1k es chest. Chaos damage on a well tuned player is very very strong, and even with good gear i have troubles reaching 1% chaos resistances.

Why would you want to tone down PA when the only build that kill's your build is the top end caster with mirrored gear PA that will output enough damage to kill you. If you are running away from us there is absolutely no way that we are going to be able to kill you. No spells are currently able to outrun and kill someone that is HP based while he is running. By removing PA you are tremendously increasing the cat and mouse game for casters that already have a pain in chasing anyone that is using fast MS and leap/whirling/flicker moves.

15% more damage pain attunement to me makes no sense, why would i be spending money to buy a shav for only 15% more damage ? I would just go CI hands down and be way more tankier.

I can enumerate easily why toning down PA to 15% is a bad thing, every caster out there without top end gear is going to SUCK hands down, no way someone with decent gear is going to beat any well tuned melee without the 30% PA. Hell even myself i still have difficulties outdpsing some mirorred crit melee guys. Exemple kevshienz still takes me down faster than i am with the 30% PA, tune down PA to 15% ? hell theres no way i'm even going to be able to kill him before he does.

I will enumerate for you which spells are good and which ones suck.

Spells with PA 30%

Freezingpulse = Strong in close range, sucks in high range ( already got 20% less dmg nerf )
Fireball = Strong close range, sucks in high range ( boosted by 5% in 1.3 )
Arc = Auto aim very random skill, borderline sucking with 30% PA
IceSpear = Well balanced skill, sucks close range very good high range
Arctic breath = very sucky high range, strong close range ( doesnt go over obstacles )
Spark = very random just like arc, borderline sucking with PA
Firestorm = Very hard to aim skill, requires PA to work or it's plain useless

Rest of the spells ? They already suck, without 30% PA ? Trashcan skills.

15% PA Spells

Freezingpulse/Fireball would remain the only '' viable '' spells in PvP with a 15% Pain attunement. All the rest would really be terribad.

And those facts are based on my experience with them with the top top top end gear/tree

So it varies a lot if someone has mediocre gear.

Mullaxul, have you even tested the effect of pain attunement damage increase on spells ? I'am testing it all day long everyday with various spells and i can tell you that most of them are still pretty bad even with it, that without the best gear it wouldn't look good. Nerfing PA is not the right thing, PA is the reason some spells are even viable.

In all sense, nerfing PA to 15% is wrong, as it makes no sense for anyone to be choosing 15% more damage instead of CI, and if you go CI then some spells will suck so much you would never touch them. I'm betting my 2 cents that no caster CI build will ever beat top melee builds without Pain attunement.

Considering how fast Cycloners/Crit bows/Daggers/Swords kills atm, 30% PA is justified needed.

Good post haunt. I can attest to this and say that as a spellcaster with upper mid-ranged gear, I get trucked on by top-end melee players. If I was able to facetank and destroy top-end melee guys, then there would be a problem.

Granted I'm not low life, but I even with the extra 30% damage, I can't imagine killing some of the melee guys. Even if I manage to really hurt some top-end players, they run, flask up and I literally can't kill them in time since they are off the screen in 0.5 seconds and most spells suck long range.

Just my 2 cents - I'm not as experienced in PVP as some of you but these are my observations.

Playing hp based, 0 crit versions of every spell you listed with a staff....7k hp, obviously no PA, obviously no crit damage and obviously no block or respectable cwdt set up power. Beating people just fine, damage is enough to win 9 out of 10 ppl I face using poverty gear. Es caster is 10x this in potential, far more options far more power. Though whatever you guys say, can't say you proved me wrong.

Mid to suck tier demographic is covered and its totally viable above example and this one below.

I've had tabula rasa casters with 1h divinarius/rathpith 5k hp, 50% block 45% crit chance/400% multiplier also using all of these spells....killing ppl/pvm easily. I have had many many suck ass geared casters to prove you wrong.

Mind telling the forum your stats Haunt? How big your es pool is, your damage, how often you 1hit kill people while you're facing backwards aiming the wrong way with your main skill? I'm not here to fight with you, just curious. You aren't forced to have -60 chaos resists, that's a build choice. With or without Shavs, CI or PA I've seen both used at max level and you can't tell me 30% MORE dmg doesn't synergize very well with crit or allow you unique and powerful options in the low life department.

It's easy to achieve a good amount of damage in PvP with shit gear, but it's god damn hard to get high es and survivability while maintaining high damage. Nerfing PA would justificaly nerf shotgun damage which is a bit too strong yeah, but it would at the same time destroy many borderline sucking spells, while destroying any spells at long range. There is certainly another way to balance everything without touching things that certainly dont need to be nerfed.

Also, with how fast people kill, i'm getting my ass 1-2 shotted by crit bows or dying in 2 seconds if i dont move from cycloners, 2-3 shotted by crit melees. You would need to reduce all that damage by a good amount if PA is nerfed to 15%.

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hauntworld1 wrote:

It's easy to achieve a good amount of damage in PvP with shit gear, but it's god damn hard to get high es and survivability while maintaining high damage. Nerfing PA would justificaly nerf shotgun damage which is a bit too strong yeah, but it would at the same time destroy many borderline sucking spells, while destroying any spells at long range. There is certainly another way to balance everything without touching things that certainly dont need to be nerfed.

Also, with how fast people kill, i'm getting my ass 1-2 shotted by crit bows or dying in 2 seconds if i dont move from cycloners, 2-3 shotted by crit melees. You would need to reduce all that damage by a good amount if PA is nerfed to 15%.

I know there's still a heap of crap spells. Freezing pulse is undenyably the best spell in PvP. Others may out DPs it, out range it but all have enough downsides to keep them crap. Piercing,shotgunning,chill/freeze/6% crit/easy as fuck to tighten up and shotgun with at all ranges. Other spells have their place but this is a one size fits all do everything spell. If you aren't using it you're gimping yourself.

Onto PA again, 15% more DMG is still significant especially when its on the side of the tree with the most crit,cast speed and es is plentiful. Hey I get 1-2 shit too, life's a bitch and crits still retarded because of legacy gear. Doesn't change the fact low life pa is still the strongest build in PvP.

i am rarely post on forum, but i think PA is good in PVP(PVE too) , its all about Penetration gems, too OP in PVP . I think this is a core of disbalance now in 1.3. U can get up to 41% pen , this is OP . If Pen come to -15% u can see a new era of builds (all builds , mele and range). IMHO

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Jedi_blr wrote:

i am rarely post on forum, but i think PA is good in PVP(PVE too) , its all about Penetration gems, too OP in PVP . I think this is a core of disbalance now in 1.3. U can get up to 41% pen , this is OP . If Pen come to -15% u can see a new era of builds (all builds , mele and range). IMHO

Yes I've brought up that point dozens of times too. Way I see it casters like to ignore everything written, every perk they get via gear and just reply summed up with "I can't stand still or I die". No shit sherlock, anyways...20% PA? 30% whatever. There are other alternatives to balance things when looking at the grand scheme of tools any build has. If not a PA tweak do ssomething to the BM gem. Re assess penetration gems, shot gunning,tempest shield and molten shell. Any one of these could be enough but right now they are all powerful. What these things all have incommon besides being very strong is they are caster tools that are active at all times and this isn't even all of them. You can call it caster hate but its just fact. Perk for perk, DMG for DMG, effective life vs effective life low life PA is top tier in all.