Searing Bond + Fire Penetration?

I have a character that runs Searing Bond with the Fire Penetration support gem, and I just read this on the PoE Wiki:

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Searing Bond does not hit, so "on hit" and "on crit" effects never apply. This includes Fire Penetration which has no effect on Searing Bond damage, however it will benefit from other changes to monster resistance such as Flammability and Elemental Equilibrium.

I just wanted to confirm that the wiki was right and Searing Bond does NOT benefit from Fire Penetration, because as I read the gems it seems like it should. Fire Penetration, after all, doesn't say anything about "on hit," it merely says "penetrates x% fire resistance," and since Searing Bond exclusively deals fire damage I don't see how it wouldn't benefit. Can someone clarify this for me please?

if you want to penetrate something, you must hit it first. DoTs in PoE dont hit

Why do you have to hit to penetrate? You don't have to hit to benefit from reduced resistances from a curse, so why would you for Fire Penetration?

I believe you since you're a supporter and probably know way more about this game than I do, but if that's the case the Fire Penetration gem is VERY poorly worded. It should have said something to the effect of "Penetrates x% Fire Resistance for the supported skill on hit" if that's what it did.

maybe they assume it is intuitive, given what the word "penetration" means. Can there be a penetration without a hit? :)

reduced resistance from curse or Elemental Equilibrium are debuffs you put on enemies, while penetration gem affects your skill

theres also a bright side of it, because Elemental Equilibrium is also an on-hit effect thus SB cant proc it -> your burn damage can fully benefit from it (ofc after you trigger it with some skill that hits)

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TheMongrel wrote:

Why do you have to hit to penetrate? You don't have to hit to benefit from reduced resistances from a curse, so why would you for Fire Penetration?

I believe you since you're a supporter and probably know way more about this game than I do, but if that's the case the Fire Penetration gem is VERY poorly worded. It should have said something to the effect of "Penetrates x% Fire Resistance for the supported skill on hit" if that's what it did.

Curses modify the stats of the monster you're attacking directly, before damage calculation, it's an entirely different mechanic. Penetration can only affect hits, probably because of damage effect types being coded differently.

The game is just too complicated to put all mechanics information on all gems and items. The research we have do to is the sacrifice for a game with depth and high level of customization at the same time.
I can understand your complaint if linking Fire Pen to Searing Bond does indeed increase the mana cost of the skill / shows the small icon in the upper right corner. If it doesn't, it should be obvious that it doesn't work.

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Ludvator wrote:

maybe they assume it is intuitive, given what the word "penetration" means. Can there be a penetration without a hit? :)

It's really not that intuitive though, because by the same logic can there really be damage without a hit? And if so, why couldn't that damage penetrate resistances? It's not like you're punching through armor, you're just ignoring protection that by all accounts seems to be completely intangible.

The Elemental Equilibrium bright side unfortunately doesn't benefit this character, since he's a pure fire damage Templar =(

I don't really mind that Fire Penetration doesn't work with Searing Bond, to clarify. I'm just peeved that there is really no way to know that without visiting the wiki because the gem is poorly worded.

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TheMongrel wrote:

The Elemental Equilibrium bright side unfortunately doesn't benefit this character, since he's a pure fire damage Templar =(

it is enough to deal 1 cold/light damage to proc EE. Or do you have Avatar of Fire? Why with SB? or is SB only a support skill? Are you sure your build actually benefits from Avatar of Fire?

edit: and yes, there can be damage without a hit (in case Id continue with this pointless discussion). Imagine standing very close to big fire source.. Did you get hit? Are you receiving damage? :))

Well yeah I know there can be damage without a hit, the point I was making was that if that's the case then a "resistance penetration" should work for that damage since there's nothing tangible like armor that needs to be breached (which would logically require a hit). There is unfortunately no real world example I can offer since there aren't resistances in real life, but I'd imagine that if you had a ring that gave you fire resistance and someone lit a fire that penetrated fire resistance which you then stepped on, your intangible barrier would be weakened to it without the need of a hit. Again, there is no real world analogue, which is why the gem should clarify.

As for the build, he's still in Normal (just needs to kill Dominus), and he's being specced to eventually wield Oro's Sacrifice. I'm not sure if Searing Bond will be in the final build, but since I'm stacking fire damage and just grabbed the burning damage nodes near the templar area I figured I'd try the totem out. I don't plan on getting Avatar of Fire, it's just not really necessary for the build and I like being able to freeze and shock sometimes.

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Zed_ wrote:

The game is just too complicated to put all mechanics information on all gems and items. The research we have do to is the sacrifice for a game with depth and high level of customization at the same time.
I can understand your complaint if linking Fire Pen to Searing Bond does indeed increase the mana cost of the skill / shows the small icon in the upper right corner. If it doesn't, it should be obvious that it doesn't work.

agree, the small icon is confusing, together with the fact that penetration does not (and cant) affect tooltip dps. On the other hand, pen quality does actually increase SB damage.

even the gem description change OP suggest would not solve much, new players (used to some other games where everything works with everything) have no idea that DoTs dont hit.. and putting wall of description text on every gem or passive would be even worse:)

@OP

but I actually appreciate your approach. You try things out and look for answers (either here or on wiki). Thats how you learn the best.. and knowledge is the power here..

I consider making own builds to be the most fun aspect of the game and people who only follow guides can never understand the game (IMO) -> can never make their own working builds