The Economics of Botting - How do Bots affect a game?

Came across this really interesting trilogy of videos on the economics of Eve Online (let's be honest, which game has a more fully fleshed out game economy than Eve?). The second part of the trilogy dealt the issue of botting in the economy - https://youtu.be/dQRzr2zU2Xw (don't worry, it's less than 8 mins long, and you don't need to be familiar with Eve to follow it)

So I was wondering how you all think botting affects the PoE economy, especially compared with how Eve functions. Are there significant differences between the two games' economies? What can one learn from the other? Is botting good or bad for the player economy and how so? How would allowing more or less botting affect PoE's economy?

Of course, I mean to ask you all this from a broader, overhead perspective i.e. how you think it affects the game and players as a whole, not your particular experiences trading with bots. Discuss below! :)

The issue with bots in PoE is very similar to the issue of drugs in the real world. When it comes to drugs, they are strictly forbidden, governments are "prosecuting" dealers and generally "very actively" fighting drug trafficking. Still, somehow they "can't" deal with this problem, although they are able to eavesdrop on every telephone conversation and even use an satellite to track ants in anthils. Furthermore, drugs are widely available despite all governmental "efforts." I wonder why this is happening? I know why, but it makes no sense to discuss it.

It's the same with bots in PoE. GGG has issued a lot of very strict orders and "code of conducts" that prohibit the use of any bots and in particular the purchase and sale of ingame currency for real money. It very actively "pursues" these "crimes" and as soon as someone whispers about RMT in the forum, he immediately gets banned.

Despite this, there are the same trading and currency bots in the game for many years, at the beginning of each league entire farms, employing hundreds of bots, care for a steady flow of ingame currency and work without any problems. This is because bots are an important part of the game and their removal would cause a huge outflow of players. Lack of currency bots would completely paralyze ingame currency trading, while the lack of RMT bots would cause the outflow of players who can't afford to play the game 12+ hours a day but still want to have the best gear possible. And there are plenty of such players and they are very valuable, because if they can spend money on such stupid things as ingame currency, they will also spend it on MTX.

That is why GGG "formally" fights with bots, sometimes even bans one, but in fact makes sure that they are not harmed.

Botting in PoE usually comes in 2 forms, 1 is grinding out stuff to sell, and the other is actually executing trades.

In terms of grinding stuff out it's bad for bad for basically everyone whose not doing it. It devalues their work and messes with the economy in weird ways, which makes it harder for honest people to do things.

In terms of executing trades, well all that does it make it easier to actually buy things, it's just another player side fix to the trading situation in the long line of player side fixes to the trading situation.

When you realize that of the dozens or so trades you did today, the ones who weren't playing head games with you in the trade window or trash talking the item they pestered you to sell them, were likely BOTS...

that aside, most botting is made profitable by flipping. They automate searches for low-overhead items that move fast, and then move them fast at a profit. Price fixing is part of this and is usually unintentional, but inevitable as the bots seek the optimum price point.

It's more convenient, but at what true cost? Items that used to list for an alc now go for a chaos, or a chisel. The bots extract profit by choosing to resell at the next highest currency value - even if it's highly specific currency.

Not a big jump in price, but if you're level 25 and this is your first character and you're in the market for a gently used pair of Wanderlusts or a refitted Roth's reach, chances are you haven't seen a chaos orb yet, let alone a chisel.

Currency bots are pervasive in any game with an economy, and if they aren't kept in check, the game basically folds. People lose interest in doing anything but quant farming. Some folks say PoE already has a terminal case and that's why devs won't pull the plug on TS deadeye or MF items. There's always a risk that cutting out the cancer will not leave enough players in the game for it to survive.

"

Exile009 wrote:

...Of course, I mean to ask you all this from a broader, overhead perspective i.e. how you think it affects the game and players as a whole, not your particular experiences trading with bots. Discuss below! :)

I can't tell you how it effects PoE, but I can tell you that it effects every game differently. Most of the differences are due to player-populations.

I some games, bots keep the economy and a game that depends on the economy from dying... Yes, without bots, some games wouldn't have the in-game currency/loot/whatever to sustain the playerbase that is smaller than the game was planned for.

In other games, they can cause a ton of player "discontent." Any gamer old enough and worth the carpal-tunnel they paid good gaming hours for knows what it feels like to watch a bot take the resources or camping spot you've relied on to fund your gameplay in any particular game. That's the biggest concern for developers, I think - They know there are bots and they just don't want them negatively impacting a player's game experience.

Keeping bots out is nearly impossible. Good ones, that is. What IS possible, however, is following the transaction heuristics. Even so, a good bot probably transfers resources at varying rates and it gets filtered through temporary accounts that get deleted, making it troublesome, etc, etc...

For myself, I've condoned using/dealing with or in any way supporting "bots." I hate the concept. But, the fact is that end-game players in a lot of games wouldn't have as easy access to necessary game-bits without patronizing bot organizations or, in some cases, using them. (When I was in an end-game raiding guild, it was common practice for some players to use bots for certain things. Why? Because they had a life and running end-game raids doesn't allow for a lot of that. They got caught frequently, of course... Temp bans - That's what notable end-gamer guild members got at that time.)

You have to farm a lot harder for anything good because so much currency is in play with bots but items are not since bots don't make/ID GG items.

His Analysis of inflation is crap tho. US printed up 29 trillion to bailout not only our banks but foreign too and markets. Caused no inflation.
https://www.cnbc.com/id/45674390

Inflation only shows it's head if operating at over capacity. Study modern monetary theory not dated Keynesian or worse Austrian school which he seems to be parroting. Yes Zimbabwe had inflation because they cant make a tractor or whatever and had zillions of dollars fighting for those few tractors in country - overcapacity. We dont have that problem. We had huge unemployment under Obama with tractors unsold. Under capacity.

In game it is over capacity because again items are relatively fixed compared to currency input since bots do not contribute to items in any appreciable way. (yet)


Yo but you should stop worrying about bots. Game is way better SSF anyways. A lot of the best players switched to it and they dont care about bots because they were rich by day 3 with trade because they play so much - but SSFs a better game.

I have often wondered, if the API wasn't public, would this help?

Bots in PoE are a double edged sword. They drive prices of exalts up, because they print chaos. They also buy the exalts, because those are the universal RMT currency. But, they also help a lot with currency conversion, so that your average pleb can actually turn all those pennies and trash into tradeable currency to buy their gear.

In all honesty this game is a botters paradise. Its F2p, meaning they can spam accounts to their hearts content, get banned, make more. Lose nothing but whatever stock they had on said accounts. Got a centralized currency that they can focus on in exalts.

[Removed by Support]

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

...His Analysis of inflation is crap tho. US printed up 29 trillion to bailout not only our banks but foreign too and markets. Caused no inflation.
https://www.cnbc.com/id/45674390

Inflation only shows it's head if operating at over capacity. ...

"Out of Balance" issues, of any sort, in any economic system where something has seemingly drifted out of range serve to magnify other problems when they, themselves, aren't a pivotal issue.

IOW - They're relevant for discussion when their appearance unveils other more dangerous problems. (IMO)


Applying such things to fully controlled economies, though, is difficult. Nobody cares what the currency exchange rate is as long as it "works" for them. Nobody cares how much an Exalt costs, itself. Up to a point... That's where the PoE system is kind of weird - All "Currency" has a separately applied intrinsic value.

I can't take my real monies and "re-roll" my couch with them. I can't change the color of my couch, directly, either. (I suppose if I rubbed it enough I could.)

So, this is sort of a 3/4'ths implied value and 1/4'ths implicit value kind of thing, I guess. But, that implicit value is much higher for certain items. That also seem to make that segment a bit more stable, too. Some "value" is individually determined, too. A Chaos might be worth less to a player than an Alch and a Scour, for instance.

Items, though, depend on player permeation of content and drop rates. But, no matter what the supply of highly desirable items for common build schemes, a Kaom's always seems to be worth twice the currency that I have in my Stash...

Players who've had experience with many "in-game economies" can generally spot "Bots" pretty quickly. Any game that has a mechanic that allows a player to exchange something that has some kind of in-game value associated with it will have some form of Bots. An in-game marketplace only multiplies their population and effect.

We also have to keep in mind that "bots" are not always automated things, but are shepherded by some live person somewhere and in some form. Often they're running multiple bots, checking on each to make sure it hasn't borked out, with multiple windows/accounts open. Running one bot is not profitable for serious botters and "Bot Stables." (Basically, poor or otherwise unemployed people trying to make a bit of money so they can eat. In some cases, they're working in sweatshops and under direct threats to their own personal safety if they don't "perform." It's less common now than it was, but it probably still happens in some places.)

Bots/Botters want control, but they don't want "destruction." They want stability and high profits that can be translated into real-life currency. For games where that isn't possible or is very easily caught in some way, botting by players for personal satisfaction isn't something that could really threaten the economy of the game or effect many players. Serious botters that could otherwise represent a threat to stability don't want to break the markets, they want to determine them and keep them stable. Player-bots focused on exploiting the market want something similar, but then they want the "Big Payoff Before The Ban." :)

I don't like bots/botters at all, but recognize that they exist. Anyone that attempts to truly profit from such activity, though, needs to end up paying the developers/publishers for such infractions.