Geonor's Intermission. Yes, really.

So here's the thing.
I believe that, given perfect play and off the cuff reflexes and patience, all bosses in the game should be killable without taking damage.

Otherwise, every mandatory damage has to be either a gearcheck that doesn't drastically tax your long-fight resources, a soft enrage that taxes those resources in order to act as a dps check, or negligible unavoidable damage to either force you to have some sustain (of which there is little to none in the game) or just for flavour.

Now here's the thing with geonor: I've fought it many times on several characters on normal, cruel, and map difficulty from +0 to +4. And it's the only boss where there's a phase you're just supposed to take damage. I mean the intermission. Between teh boss going away, the adds and the mechanics you're supposed to dodge, not to mention the dash which is telegraphed by has a significant but consistent delay, you end up in a situation where, unless you overgear it, you always loose reosurces to it.

Now let me ask you, is it a gear check that you have an entire phase where you're supposed to waste flask charges in acts while still dodging all mechanics? Is it a dps check? Is it just random difficulty without reason? Yes it's the latter.

I don't even think it's a super imbalanced issue, I think it's just a tiny adjustment that provokes this problem. If the adds had less health, if the dash hit for less damage or if the phase was shorter, a single one of those changes, even slightly, would make the fight much more in line with the bosses of act 2 and 3. But as it stands, that intermission means that you end up having to completely overgear the adds in order to be able to last the entire fight... unless you oneshot the boss with overgearing IT instead, ofc...

I know people will just be like "git gud, skill issue, it's fine cus I killed shut up angry yelling" or something. But let me specify that I've played poe for 11 years, I've played all souls game and do challenge runs for fun, and I even think this is the only really problemtic boss outside arbiter (well, there's 1 or 2 specific attacks in other bosses that could use a bit of a slowdown). Even if you think this is a skill issue, I shouldn't have to present a "pro gamur ID card" to have my opinion considered. I think this boss has a slight overtuning in the intermission, if you don't see it that's fine but don't dismiss it just because you didn't see it. You'll be the one looking like an ahole.

I don't see it as mandatory damage? You can consistently dodge the boss dash attack after his voice line and the delay. It's just timing and that is intentional.

I don't remember taking much if any damage from the adds during that phase in campaign (or in maps as spark but that's not a fair comparison), but it could be designed as an attrition thing where it is intended to tax your resources.

It may be a little over tuned, though I personally think his issue is the freeze beams visual clarity, and that the intermission phase was pretty well balanced.

You can definitely infinitely dodge the dashes. My point is that you don't have time to do that while also killing the dogs fast enough to not take quite a lot of damage from them. Maybe not enough to kill you, but enough to tax your flasks severly. This isn't even to mention dodging lasers from the skies if those are happening or the chilled ground.

That's why I say that lowering the adds hp a little would fix it.

I agree it is essentially a gear check.

The phase is about checking if you have enough defenses to not get pseudo-stunlocked so you can kill enough adds which would allow you to dodge adequately while also keep on killing adds.

The gradually increasing number of adds is also a soft-enrage type of mechanic, where if you don't have enough dps you will get overwhelmed and get stunned such that the boss will take off a chunk of your life, etc.

The problem is that this gear check is placed in Act 1, when it is still mostly just luck whether you got to have enough defenses or offsenses, and when you still don't have a lot of passive points to create a build with synergies.

So those who got lucky with drops feel the fight is fine, those who didn't get lucky feel like they hit a wall.

I think ultimately, tuning down the attack speed of these adds would help a lot, as you would get stunned a lot less, which improves your ability to kill them and also to dodge the boss.

But it is still one primary example where the claim about slow and methodical gameplay is just an empty slogan. This fight relies on killing adds quickly and not methodically.

In fact, what little "slow and methodical" we have in this game essentially ends after this boss. Mob packs grow larger and faster, and the only way to deal with them is always "fast and high damage".

Skill issue, I've done him without taking any damage.

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Seystuff#5465 wrote:

you have an entire phase where you're supposed to waste flask charges

Uhm, no.
That's actually the phase in which you GAIN flask charges by killing the adds.
The dodge timing is very consistent with his voice lines and inbetween dodging you kill the adds. There's no reason to take damage at all in that phase.

I hate to say it, because I really don't like the phrase... but yeah, that one is literally a skill issue.

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kumogakure#7381 wrote:

The problem is that this gear check is placed in Act 1, when it is still mostly just luck whether you got to have enough defenses or offsenses, and when you still don't have a lot of passive points to create a build with synergies.

So those who got lucky with drops feel the fight is fine, those who didn't get lucky feel like they hit a wall.

It's not luck at all....its called "grinding". You can play the level 11 King in the Mists area like 5 times and have a fully geared rare character. You can fight the bosses in the areas just before Geonor a handful of times and drop everything you need to 1) craft gear, 2) gamble for gear, 3) buy gear from vendors, or 4) use dropped gear.

You are under the impression that every area you already played just....disappears after you played it. Well fun little hint: they don't. And especially on a fresh character, in a fresh league, ssf or otherwise, you need to farm your gear. It's not at all whether you are "lucky enough" to be geared for the fight.

Its obvious from his first attack that Geonor deals mostly cold damage. First thing that told me? I need to cap my cold resistance. 2 sapphire rings was all it took to pretty much reduce his damage to nothing. You get to this particular phase and realize you are nearly forced into taking damage? Get some health regen or leech. I had a single leech roll going into him and never needed to use a potion because fighting the mobs just immediately refilled all my health.

Gearing is never the problem: learning the mechanics and being able to mechanically pull them off is the problem. Skill + experience.

Any problems with gear you have in the campaign, at any point, is a fixable problem with some grinding. Or...you are playing as a warrior and are sol

Players have completely forgotten that games like this aren't meant to be 100% linear. You aren't meant to just keep trying to fight Geonor over and over and over again if you 1) don't do enough damage or 2) don't have defenses. You go BACK and farm.

The Geonor fight is quite easy once you learn it. Everyone has trouble with it at first, but the intermission in particular can be problematic unless you're observant. Note that Geonor is reciting a lovely, haunting poem during this phase and his charges occur at the pauses between verses. Iambic pentameter, I think, but the main thing is - once he reaches a natural pause between verses simply dodge.

Once you get the timing down, you'll never take damage from that phase again. Can be a bit challenging with the adds, but having played six characters now I can report that this is a completely reliable method - never had another death after my first fight.

Hope that helps.

Inethil

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It's not luck at all....its called "grinding". You can play the level 11 King in the Mists area like 5 times and have a fully geared rare character. You can fight the bosses in the areas just before Geonor a handful of times and drop everything you need to 1) craft gear, 2) gamble for gear, 3) buy gear from vendors, or 4) use dropped gear.

Of course it's luck because loot drop in this game is random. Yes you can grind, and why do you have to grind? Because item drop is random, i.e. luck.

The grind exists entirely because the loot is luck. And because campaign mini bosses will drop worse loot after the first kill, they mostly behave like your random rares in terms of loot. You also don't have agency over rarity like you have at endgame, and that's why I said gearing is mostly luck at this stage.

Also, I never said don't go grind. I said that it is essentially a gear check. And how to you pass gear checks? Of course you grind.

My previous comment was merely to point out WHY some people may feel Mad Wolf is too difficult, and that yes tuning down the add phase would make it easier.

I actually didn't say whether I want it to be tuned down or not.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

kumogakure#7381 wrote:

The problem is that this gear check is placed in Act 1, when it is still mostly just luck whether you got to have enough defenses or offsenses, and when you still don't have a lot of passive points to create a build with synergies.

So those who got lucky with drops feel the fight is fine, those who didn't get lucky feel like they hit a wall.

It's not luck at all....its called "grinding". You can play the level 11 King in the Mists area like 5 times and have a fully geared rare character. You can fight the bosses in the areas just before Geonor a handful of times and drop everything you need to 1) craft gear, 2) gamble for gear, 3) buy gear from vendors, or 4) use dropped gear.

You are under the impression that every area you already played just....disappears after you played it. Well fun little hint: they don't. And especially on a fresh character, in a fresh league, ssf or otherwise, you need to farm your gear. It's not at all whether you are "lucky enough" to be geared for the fight.

Its obvious from his first attack that Geonor deals mostly cold damage. First thing that told me? I need to cap my cold resistance. 2 sapphire rings was all it took to pretty much reduce his damage to nothing. You get to this particular phase and realize you are nearly forced into taking damage? Get some health regen or leech. I had a single leech roll going into him and never needed to use a potion because fighting the mobs just immediately refilled all my health.

Gearing is never the problem: learning the mechanics and being able to mechanically pull them off is the problem. Skill + experience.

Any problems with gear you have in the campaign, at any point, is a fixable problem with some grinding. Or...you are playing as a warrior and are sol

Players have completely forgotten that games like this aren't meant to be 100% linear. You aren't meant to just keep trying to fight Geonor over and over and over again if you 1) don't do enough damage or 2) don't have defenses. You go BACK and farm.

Ok, first of all, you're being condescending. It's not different at all from saying "git gud." If you won't make arguments in good faith, the logic of your argument gets lost in the attitude.

Secondly. My entire point is that, with Geonor in specific, either you have enough gear for the fight to be a complete cakewalk, or you don't have enough gear to have the intermission feel reasonable. It is very rare that you can kill the adds fast enough and not have enough dps to completely trivialize the fight or even skip the intermission.

Lastly, if you think this is about learning the mehcanics, skill, exprience, and not being "under the impression previous zones stop existing" well, if you read the original post you will know I've got as much experience with this and similar games as one can, and I'm willing to learn fights and grind gear. Please refrain from guttural reactions and actually think the point through.