Why does POE2 try so hard to reduce the fun at high levels?

I like this game, enjoying many things about it.
I have about 350 hours and my max level character is 94.
I like it taking a while to level up a character.
I like that I've had to re-work my character a couple of times to progress.
And I like that dying means something.

However, with the way things are, I think I only have the patience to hit 95 and in order to get that last level I have to stop doing certain maps, avoid certain affixes on maps, and decrease difficulty of bosses in the Atlas because of getting 1 shot too often because the fights last way longer with all the freaking health they get. So basically I have to stop having as much fun in order to level up.

In gerneral I've found that leveling, gearing, "playing the lotto", and the overall experience gets worse as you go up in level. I'm not having nearly as much fun as I used to and I like chasing goals, but these goals are so ridiculous and the number of obstacles placed in the way are just too many and boring.

Why do we cap drops at Waystone 15 - monster lvl 79?
Why is the chance to get good end-game items soooooo freaking low?
Why do I have to engage in trade to gear up? Don't get me wrong I like being able to trade but it shouldn't be the defacto way to gear up, I should get good drops or have the ability to actually craft - or better yet - BOTH!
Why is playing with a group discouraged (due to game mechanics)
Why are my level 84 item drops rolling tier 1 affixes?
Why have I only got one Perfect Jeweler Orb drop in 350 hours of play - my friend with slightly more hours hasn't gotten one!?
-seriously do we want people to not be able to increase the slots of their gems?
Why is getting a character to 100 discouraged so heavily?
Why is soooooo much junk dropped that you have to use crazy loot filters?



But now the things standing in my way of progressing my character are items, exp penalty and the fact that waystone drops max at lvl 15. And all the work I have to do in order to get many of my maps up to 82 with good affixes.

Yes I know how to improve the maps, but it's too much work and your reward is lvl 82?

Let the maps at least go up to monster level 85 naturally, and then put in all of these stupid hoops to get it higher. I want to fight higher level monsters than 82.

increase quality of drops.
implement actual crafting.
increase cap of waystone level.
balance difficulty between mobs and maxed bosses.

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Hendel#1528 wrote:

-seriously do we want people to not be able to increase the slots of their gems?

It is truly a wonder that one of the biggest frustrations of gearing in PoE - trying to get that 6L in the right colours - has been made worse by just not providing the currency for it in PoE2. I think I'd rather sit there rolling the sockets/links/colours with the abundance of dropped currency in PoE1 than how it works currently in PoE2.

Sorry I cherry-picked that one, but it's laughable.

I hope this kind of tedium is not part of the design philosophy, feels more like dark patterns for player retention over quality content to be honest.

"

Headsoup#4370 wrote:

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Hendel#1528 wrote:

-seriously do we want people to not be able to increase the slots of their gems?

It is truly a wonder that one of the biggest frustrations of gearing in PoE - trying to get that 6L in the right colours - has been made worse by just not providing the currency for it in PoE2. I think I'd rather sit there rolling the sockets/links/colours with the abundance of dropped currency in PoE1 than how it works currently in PoE2.

Sorry I cherry-picked that one, but it's laughable.

I hope this kind of tedium is not part of the design philosophy, feels more like dark patterns for player retention over quality content to be honest.

The links should be applied to the character slots -- not the gems... Poor design choice, intentionally, to wreck currency even further. Now we have to buy our max level gems. Multiple level 95/94's -- I found 1. Fucking a SINGLE ONE...

Put in massive hours. I'm a homebound disabled person, I played like 18 hour days, I would log in and watch ziz come on then go to bed while I still played. Trust me, I put in serious hours -- it's a terrible design meant to slow us down and make us actually have to pay for levels.

Player progression tanks around level 92. A lot of your points (all solid) should be fixable with better itemization and some deterministic crafting. Right now, the game relies too much on trading for progression, making higher levels feel tedious since you know drops won’t get you there. IMHO, PoE1 is perfectly balanced, so I’ve got high hopes they’ll get it corrected.

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N3vangel#0037 wrote:

Player progression tanks around level 92. A lot of your points (all solid) should be fixable with better itemization and some deterministic crafting. Right now, the game relies too much on trading for progression, making higher levels feel tedious since you know drops won’t get you there. IMHO, PoE1 is perfectly balanced, so I’ve got high hopes they’ll get it corrected.

The weird thing is, PoE1 is actually horribly balanced and that's why they need 'PoE University' to counter all the absurd situations that can wreck you unexpectedly. But... somehow in the end that has become part of what makes the game appealing, the journey of discovery in understanding all the wonky balance bits. It's the long game.

I would not expect GGG to put a high priority on balance while most of the classes and weapon types, and skills, aren't even implemented yet.

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Headsoup#4370 wrote:

I hope this kind of tedium is not part of the design philosophy, feels more like dark patterns for player retention over quality content to be honest.

This is the part I don't get. If it's about trying to keep people playing in the hope that while chasing these items they decide to buy MTX then I think it's a piss poor way to do it.

I can't tell you how many times I quit leagues in POE 1 because I got sick of trying to get the proper level(s) for the build I wanted to run and trying to get the proper gear for said build.

I can't imagine I'm the only one that quit because it got tedious and defeating.

Personally I've been lucky in that I've had 4 PJO's drop for me, so I can't complain on that end.

But there's a myriad of issues with end-game that I can't imagine they feel will keep people playing instead of logging due to frustration.

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yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

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Headsoup#4370 wrote:

I hope this kind of tedium is not part of the design philosophy, feels more like dark patterns for player retention over quality content to be honest.

This is the part I don't get. If it's about trying to keep people playing in the hope that while chasing these items they decide to buy MTX then I think it's a piss poor way to do it.

I can't tell you how many times I quit leagues in POE 1 because I got sick of trying to get the proper level(s) for the build I wanted to run and trying to get the proper gear for said build.

I can't imagine I'm the only one that quit because it got tedious and defeating.

Personally I've been lucky in that I've had 4 PJO's drop for me, so I can't complain on that end.

But there's a myriad of issues with end-game that I can't imagine they feel will keep people playing instead of logging due to frustration.

Same for me. There's some really basic things that should have been obvious fixes out of PoE1 that are still in PoE2 and it's baffling:

Needing external lootfilters, not even a basic in-game one. Having to ID items. Still having a uselessly small inventory. Respec cost. Extremely punishing XP penalty (made worse with 1 map attempt). Monster damage combinations being silly. Monster speed issues. Getting 6L. Monsters attacks interrupting the player constantly. No new customisation for stash (i.e. custom affinities etc). Visual clarity. It goes on.

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Headsoup#4370 wrote:

It is truly a wonder that one of the biggest frustrations of gearing in PoE - trying to get that 6L in the right colours - has been made worse by just not providing the currency for it in PoE2.

You know I just realized, because of the state of mana cost being so bad we don't even get true 6 links because one gem HAS to be inspiration unless you're a mana stacker type build.

Almost every single build needs Inspiration. So we only really get a 5L.

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Headsoup#4370 wrote:

I hope this kind of tedium is not part of the design philosophy, feels more like dark patterns for player retention over quality content to be honest.

Tedium has 100% been GGG's primary design philosophy, we aren't kidding, and it's been sickening me for the last 3 years. Every single league is only more stuff being slowly stripped, "reworked", "rebalanced", or whatever new horrible word just means "destroyed".


This entire game is a monument to wasting our time by making everything tedious as fuck. The tower system and forcing us to do maps we don't want to do is outright hostile to the player. We don't want that, and we don't care if GGG likes it or not.

Their focus is to have us hooked up like the matrix, no lifing 25/8, never ever stopping.

I preferred blasting POE 1 in 3 weeks, being bored to tears by week 5, and quitting until new league.

That is the cycle I want. Slowing us down fucks that up.

GGG continues to balance their games around the no-lifers. Sadly, everyone else doesn't matter.

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Renegade_Archer#1313 wrote:

GGG continues to balance their games around the no-lifers. Sadly, everyone else doesn't matter.

This is true. If not, they would balance the leveling progression (skills, itemisation and difficulty) and monster damage/actions to maintain a fair level of challenge and reduce friction otherwise. To be fair they did a little bit of this with PoE2 last month, but only number tweaking, not design changes.

Instead, they just keep thinking up ways to add friction to slow the player down (PoE1 & 2), not realising that it's poorly designed gameplay loops that are the problem, like stupid modifiers and monster combinations leading to crazy difficulty spikes for casuals all the time. GGG remove things players find to side-step the unnecessary friction, rather than addressing the friction.