Map drops - assessment of 2.0.0, and changes coming in 2.0.2

Hopefully you are well aware already, but most people running 76/77+ maps need to run those maps with fees to keep potential losses low. What happened this season with the introduction of even higher max level maps is that the value of a high level map is substantially higher. Last season someone would look to pay on average a maximum of 1 exalt (less as the season went on) for the highest level map available.

These new maps cost considerably more, (with reason) so 'fee maps runs' have an issue where the cost of the map and the fee the party members are willing to pay is bad business. I tried to run a 78 map for a 2 chaos fee less than 2 weeks into the season and no one was willing to pay. 78's are nothing compared to the unfortunate people who want to run full party 81+ maps and need a party willing to pay 3+ chaos per map. As a party member this is also unreasonable, unless you really are after only the experience points. I'm getting the impression that most people that run high level maps are running them solo, I've run into quite a few people running solo maps for survivability as well. This season, as high level map runner you HAVE to take losses every map.

In my experience maps are smooth up until 75+

One thing you may want to look at is the fact that the set of level 74 maps are very dangerous. Torture chamber, waste pool, labyrinth, jungle valley, and mine, all of these maps have a lethal property about them that should be avoided. (chaos dmg for waste pool) I think most players would agree that 75 maps are safer than the set of 74 maps available.

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db183 wrote:

Building a base of lower maps and working your way up slowly in no way 'reduces variance' of the map drops. Map drops are the same in a 74+ maps whether you have 1 or 1000 of them.

Sure, slowly building that base and working up will help you sustain the map level you built up to for a longer period of time. However, you still had to run hundreds of maps that were low level to get to that point. This is statistically no different than running your highest level map and resetting to the lower maps to get to that level again repeatedly. You end up with the same exact amount in the end.

The common hardcore method of using low level maps and working their way up is just a direct effect of out-leveling and out-gearing the content to stay safe-- The same thing HC players do throughout the entire game. HC players don't mind this because the play style of trivializing content to stay alive is the norm for them.

This.

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db183 wrote:

Building a base of lower maps and working your way up slowly in no way 'reduces variance' of the map drops. Map drops are the same in a 74+ maps whether you have 1 or 1000 of them.

Sure, slowly building that base and working up will help you sustain the map level you built up to for a longer period of time. However, you still had to run hundreds of maps that were low level to get to that point. This is statistically no different than running your highest level map and resetting to the lower maps to get to that level again repeatedly. You end up with the same exact amount in the end.

The common hardcore method of using low level maps and working their way up is just a direct effect of out-leveling and out-gearing the content to stay safe-- The same thing HC players do throughout the entire game. HC players don't mind this because the play style of trivializing content to stay alive is the norm for them.

While when running a map doesn't matter (and "building a map base" provides psychological benefit, rather than statistical benefit), the hardcore players run lower level maps run that wouldn't be run on a standard league.

That the leagues had a very different shape was odd to us, and something we had to examine and see why. The "wall" was much more pronounced on Standard and Warbands than Tempest.

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Alexlulz wrote:

Is data rly enogh to balance around it? I think a key thing u missed is the problem that LOWLVL maps dropp in 79+ I have never felt a more frustrating feeling in Poe then getting 68-75 maps in a 80-82 map it feels worse then eteranL/exalting I hope a person that actually plays the game @GGG can tell u more about it its disgusting feeling.

The stats aren't all we use. In fact the staff in GGG who run live maps were of the opinion that there would not be a literal wall, it was mostly play style.

In this case the stats, said, no, there is a real problem that needs addressing.

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Qarl wrote:

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db183 wrote:

Building a base of lower maps and working your way up slowly in no way 'reduces variance' of the map drops. Map drops are the same in a 74+ maps whether you have 1 or 1000 of them.

Sure, slowly building that base and working up will help you sustain the map level you built up to for a longer period of time. However, you still had to run hundreds of maps that were low level to get to that point. This is statistically no different than running your highest level map and resetting to the lower maps to get to that level again repeatedly. You end up with the same exact amount in the end.

The common hardcore method of using low level maps and working their way up is just a direct effect of out-leveling and out-gearing the content to stay safe-- The same thing HC players do throughout the entire game. HC players don't mind this because the play style of trivializing content to stay alive is the norm for them.

While when running a map doesn't matter (and "building a map base" provides psychological benefit, rather than statistical benefit), the hardcore players run lower level maps run that wouldn't be run on a standard league.

That the leagues had a very different shape was odd to us, and something we had to examine and see why. The "wall" was much more pronounced on Standard and Warbands than Tempest.

Because nobody on softcore at level 90+ wants to run fucking level 70 maps chief. Softcore is the yolo league, you do the hardest shit you can find to get to good maps then you hang out there for a bit. Hardcore, you slowly get your shit together.

Look at the amount of player deaths between SC and HC leagues, I'm sure you'll find there are interesting figures there too. It's a different game.

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Qarl wrote:

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Alexlulz wrote:

Is data rly enogh to balance around it? I think a key thing u missed is the problem that LOWLVL maps dropp in 79+ I have never felt a more frustrating feeling in Poe then getting 68-75 maps in a 80-82 map it feels worse then eteranL/exalting I hope a person that actually plays the game @GGG can tell u more about it its disgusting feeling.

The stats aren't all we use. In fact the staff in GGG who run live maps were of the opinion that there would not be a literal wall, it was mostly play style.

In this case the stats, said, no, there is a real problem that needs addressing.

dont ignore the the lowlvl map issue the feeling of it is disgusting i cant find a worse word for it , i rather blank 10 82s then find 1 68 in one of them

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Qarl wrote:

"

db183 wrote:

Building a base of lower maps and working your way up slowly in no way 'reduces variance' of the map drops. Map drops are the same in a 74+ maps whether you have 1 or 1000 of them.

Sure, slowly building that base and working up will help you sustain the map level you built up to for a longer period of time. However, you still had to run hundreds of maps that were low level to get to that point. This is statistically no different than running your highest level map and resetting to the lower maps to get to that level again repeatedly. You end up with the same exact amount in the end.

The common hardcore method of using low level maps and working their way up is just a direct effect of out-leveling and out-gearing the content to stay safe-- The same thing HC players do throughout the entire game. HC players don't mind this because the play style of trivializing content to stay alive is the norm for them.

While when running a map doesn't matter (and "building a map base" provides psychological benefit, rather than statistical benefit), the hardcore players run lower level maps run that wouldn't be run on a standard league.

That the leagues had a very different shape was odd to us, and something we had to examine and see why. The "wall" was much more pronounced on Standard and Warbands than Tempest.

Sometimes I think HC takes even MORE risks than SC players in this new patch especially. I know from talking to friends and people high up on the ladder that we were all running insane maps. Maps that before going into the map device were consistently 120-140%+. On top of that, most the the people trying to really ladder simply didn't skip bosses unless the risk was just too great. I had a 85, 89, 94 and now a 92. I think I've skipped a grand total of 2 bosses in all the maps all those chars ran.

I see the same from other in Tempest, at least the one really pushing to level. The deaths in this league is just huge. Look at pages 2-5 in Tempest. Those were people pushing really hard. From experience they knew they had to run very high quantity maps and kill the bosses. Many times that led to RIPs (it did for me. I think my 94 died in a 79 map with around 175% quant).

Personally I like this and most of Tempest likes it. Even though some are still annoyed with the maps drops, most enjoy the push to the REQUIRED difficulty to push your character to high levels.

I don't want to lose that. We knew the risks, we took them, and loved taking them. If it becomes easy, then much of the reason to play HC and these temp leagues goes. It's just the mentality many people have in Tempest. Dying a lot actually motivates people to play better and smarter on their next reroll. Please don't destroy this.

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Ismaell wrote:

Mindless drivel

Done yet?

post gets removed :( sad. well who cares

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Qarl wrote:

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Alexlulz wrote:

Is data rly enogh to balance around it? I think a key thing u missed is the problem that LOWLVL maps dropp in 79+ I have never felt a more frustrating feeling in Poe then getting 68-75 maps in a 80-82 map it feels worse then eteranL/exalting I hope a person that actually plays the game @GGG can tell u more about it its disgusting feeling.

The stats aren't all we use. In fact the staff in GGG who run live maps were of the opinion that there would not be a literal wall, it was mostly play style.

In this case the stats, said, no, there is a real problem that needs addressing.

well lets see you added act 4 with the Awakening- most don't even do act 4 merciless -no incentive to risk.

you added more maps for end game - but the high level ones will be gated by low drops and rng.

you guys made leveling harder because you wanted the hardcore players(players that go hard- not just tempest players) to not reach level 100 until 1 month in this league- but still failed to those hardcore players figuring out how to level.

for warbands- the chaos guys are very RNG and rare to see

It seems to me that most of people that like solo play are really screwed by some of your choices and if it that's what you want, you accomplished it.

I for one really don't understand why its so bad for players to be able to run high end maps or reach level 95 with some ease. Why is GGG so against this. Most people level a guy to 85 and start a new guy because they get tired of it. It seems you make your decisions based on the top 5% instead of the overall player base, which is fine if that's who you want to alter the game around. I stopped playing, even though i have 5/8 challenges completed this season, but could not get past level 73 maps w/o purchasing them. Maps take so much currency to roll and now I'm expected to buy them. I know one person leaving this game means nothing so I'm sure it doesn't matter that I quit but I just wanted to let you know why. having 3 characters @ level 87, 86, 82 and have lost an 80, 78 and 64 (2 of them not my fault) and not having maps is just dumb. Even with the changes you are saying will happen, will not be enough to bring me back. Considering mapping is the end game for me and then being told I'm not wanted to in the core, coloseum maps w/o paying what i dont have is ridiculous to me.

Good luck to you GGG and fellow exiles.