SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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e1337donkey wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Because going slow means you spend more time thinking, when a lot of the trap setups are designed to punish people that panic. I would say the uber trials do a better job at providing a challenge in terms of pure traps and not just allowing you to run at full blast.

They didn't flesh out how builds can react to it, do you want to explain this better?

Plenty of people think the lab provides enough rewards to go back to it. However, its not like it gives the best XP, so that cuts out on the amount of people that would want to do it as well. Before we got the uber lab people did farm merciless for enchants, I feel like merciless is mainly useless in that most people won't go back to it after getting their points, but I mean why would they if they have uber lab available.

You also need to consider that if enchants are easier to get or if the lab had better rewards then it does now, that the enchants might become more saturated and worth less as a result.

Even the uber, I run it the same way.. I barely notice those new traps doing anything. Most of my friends do it like that.. and even speed runners get tons of movement speed to just run through it all. Most of the time when I see people die from the lab traps, they are panicing and running back and forth. Desperatly trying to find a safe spot, but they would have done just fine continuing forward.

Nearly every build now has a movement skill in it. Most of those bypass the majority of traps. They did patch up the Life vs ES vs Hybrid damage part. This is because the lab is divided between trap gaunlets, trash enemies and Izaro. Only Izaro requires your build to function, obviously the trash is for refilling flasks, and the traps are easily bypassed. If the lab had more encounters like Izaro where you had to kill enemies while traps assisted them, then your build would matter more.

The side rooms of the lab are a joke, the silver keys are practically no different then opening a chest outside the lab. Yes the uber lab treasure keys offer a ton of items and what not. But I was mainly refering to enchants, and more so the head slot enchant. This enchant is way too much of a grind to farm and in some cases can't even be traded for. After doing over 150 runs, I tried to get an enchant but I never recieved a single enchant that helped any skill in the build I ran it with.

I was able to farm glove and boot enchants, albeit it took several tries but it was doable with Twice Enchanted. The head slot just takes it way too far. And it will only get worse the more skills that are added into the game. I'm not asking to get it for free, but there has to be a better way to farm for this.

+1 to most of your points, and I feel too way to much wasted potential regarding the "Labyrinth"...

Going full RNG, instead of having a set chance to have an enchant for one of the skills you're wearing is a bad decission, heck even increasing it up to a capped 50% post 10 runs would have made it more interesting, if they also limited it to not chose a specific one, and to get it you would need a minimum of 5 different skills/auras/curses equipped. It would have made possible an useful enchantment for a specific skill post a substantial number of runs, but not a true RNG chance that always gets smaller...

If GGG's wants to make all the game feel like a whole, instead of just having a piece of content to seem added as an afterthought, they should improve the "Labyrinth" experience and make it a worthy to remember defining part of their game.

They did it with the current one, but unfortunately as an "Give it more thought and don't repeat the same mistakes later" type of addition...

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e1337donkey wrote:

The side rooms of the lab are a joke, the silver keys are practically no different then opening a chest outside the lab. Yes the uber lab treasure keys offer a ton of items and what not. But I was mainly refering to enchants, and more so the head slot enchant. This enchant is way too much of a grind to farm and in some cases can't even be traded for. After doing over 150 runs, I tried to get an enchant but I never recieved a single enchant that helped any skill in the build I ran it with.

I was able to farm glove and boot enchants, albeit it took several tries but it was doable with Twice Enchanted. The head slot just takes it way too far. And it will only get worse the more skills that are added into the game. I'm not asking to get it for free, but there has to be a better way to farm for this.

They can be different, because the lab has specific uniques to itself. However, I will agree in most cases seeking out the silver boxes and keys simply isn't worth the time. Much like if maps had some side area that had little to no mobs with only a small chance of getting something useful from it would be. There are exceptions , like gold to lead and stuff like that, but for the most part people are going to want to skip them and I think its fine. The lab is very heavily about collecting the rewards at the end of the challenge.


In terms of enchantments, I support a system that at least allows you to select a gem color, while it doesn't guarantee something useful, it narrows down the possibilities by a little bit, but also enables bases, like evasion to be enchanted with green gems, which are more likely going to be used by those builds, blue gems on hybris and red gems on armor bases. I would say a large drastic change isn't needed, the system was never designed to farm your own enchantments quickly, but if some compromise would have to be made I think the color system is the only thing that makes sense. I wouldn't even mind it if it costed 20 chromes or something to be able to select a color enchant.

Intricate lockers and chest with extra treasure keys are damn worth it.

What makes the Lab unique is the enchants you can get at that end, not the treasure. You can get those anywhere else in the game. But its definetly the most frustrating thing about the lab.

ES has ruled the meta for over a year now and Hubris Circlet has been the go to base for that. Outside of that, you see things like Devoto's, Abyssus, and few other unique helmets. But if those are not part of your build, then your out of luck. It has been horrendous trying to look for enchants to my builds since the lab came out. This is the only thing in the entire game that has this problem when it comes to trade. For some players, you can't farm it and you can't trade for it.

I made a post on enchants in that you should be able to pick your enchant but you no longer get a static value, and you don't get to pick the type of enchant. I said every enchant should be redesigned to fit this system and many enchant flat out needed a buff to become competitive. I used Earthquake as an example.

Going into uber lab and picking earthquake would net you either Damage 1-40%, Duration 1-30% AoE 1-15%

Total Possible Rolls 85
Chance to get perfect any EQ enchant 3/85 3-4%
Chance to get perfect specific EQ enchant 1/85 Little over 1%

Solid values being rolled from 31-39 Dam 21-29 Duration 10-14 AoE
Chance to get solid any EQ enchant 23/85 27%
Chance to get solid specific enchant 9%

Anything below solid give or take a few percent, is something you probably will consider an attempt to reroll doing more lab runs.

Then if you compare this is gloves/boot enchants. Both of those are 1/15 chance which is in the 6-7% range. The 9% on head is fairly close to 6-7% gloves/boots. I would have liked it to be around the same exactly but its close. This requires all skills have to variable options to roll on them. So yes, some work to be done but its a hell of a lot better then 1/300ish chance to get something useful.

Lab farmers can still seek out popular enchants and as well as near perfect rolls, as well as anticipate new builds coming into the fold. There would still be value for high rolled enchants comparable to low ones. As well as some strategy in diversifying enchants on different types of items to gain more currency.

I get the game/genre is a grind, but it shouldn't take over 4 leagues now to be able to get enchants for builds I want to try out. Fixing this one issue (even its not my idea) would make the lab far more enjoyable for more players.

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e1337donkey wrote:

What makes the Lab unique is the enchants you can get at that end, not the treasure. You can get those anywhere else in the game. But its definetly the most frustrating thing about the lab.

ES has ruled the meta for over a year now and Hubris Circlet has been the go to base for that. Outside of that, you see things like Devoto's, Abyssus, and few other unique helmets. But if those are not part of your build, then your out of luck. It has been horrendous trying to look for enchants to my builds since the lab came out. This is the only thing in the entire game that has this problem when it comes to trade. For some players, you can't farm it and you can't trade for it.

I made a post on enchants in that you should be able to pick your enchant but you no longer get a static value, and you don't get to pick the type of enchant. I said every enchant should be redesigned to fit this system and many enchant flat out needed a buff to become competitive. I used Earthquake as an example.

Going into uber lab and picking earthquake would net you either Damage 1-40%, Duration 1-30% AoE 1-15%

Total Possible Rolls 85
Chance to get perfect any EQ enchant 3/85 3-4%
Chance to get perfect specific EQ enchant 1/85 Little over 1%

Solid values being rolled from 31-39 Dam 21-29 Duration 10-14 AoE
Chance to get solid any EQ enchant 23/85 27%
Chance to get solid specific enchant 9%

Anything below solid give or take a few percent, is something you probably will consider an attempt to reroll doing more lab runs.

Then if you compare this is gloves/boot enchants. Both of those are 1/15 chance which is in the 6-7% range. The 9% on head is fairly close to 6-7% gloves/boots. I would have liked it to be around the same exactly but its close. This requires all skills have to variable options to roll on them. So yes, some work to be done but its a hell of a lot better then 1/300ish chance to get something useful.

Lab farmers can still seek out popular enchants and as well as near perfect rolls, as well as anticipate new builds coming into the fold. There would still be value for high rolled enchants comparable to low ones. As well as some strategy in diversifying enchants on different types of items to gain more currency.

I get the game/genre is a grind, but it shouldn't take over 4 leagues now to be able to get enchants for builds I want to try out. Fixing this one issue (even its not my idea) would make the lab far more enjoyable for more players.

Well what makes the lab unique is the specific growing challenge from the mutli stage boss fight, the unique traps and situation, but if you want to talk about the rewards, well thats the AC points and enchants.


ES ruling the meta should really have no bearing on changing the lab or enchant system. Its only natural for people to want to capitalize on the market by enchanting what bases they deem to be the most profitable. I think part of the issue with people enchanting only the hubris and whatever is that its actually too easy to get the bases that people want. I think the uber lab should have the high level bases removed and something else substituted in its place instead, as there are currently not enough reasons to do higher level maps, when many of the rewards are being offered in other places.

In terms of not being able to farm for it or trade for it, with a better balanced game people would have more options of enchanting things. However, the funny thing about hubris being so popular is that you can get some of the less popular skills for much cheaper then you would have to otherwise.


I don't think its really logical or possible (as in design wise) to change the enchanting system to be rng based on the roll. I understand the desire to want to ensure you can get something useable, but at the same time you drastically are reducing the tries you really have to take to get something. Plus enchanting something and getting a 1% roll would feel like a kick in the balls. I can only imagine how pissed off someone would be after that.

Then lets think about whats logical, implicit mods naturally can be blessed, enchants are implicit modifiers, now I understand they are different, but it wouldnt be logical to allow them to roll and not be able to be blessed, but you are basically creating a situation where the only possible way it could be balanced would be from that.


Its not about "getting something useful" as if every run has to directly benefit the character or thing you are doing. Its suppose to be random and difficult to obtain these larger power spikes. I mean compare a barrage build with and without the enchant, the difference is significant. Compare the difference between eq duration and no eq duration, again its significant. These are meant to be something more difficult and harder to obtain, which is why I think you should never be allowed to select a specific gem or let it pick off your gear, it should be at most red\green\blue

Over 4 leagues of how much playtime, how many runs? SSF or are you willing to trade for it, if its that important would you consider using an item on a bad base. I don't have the details of your problem, but this "issue" is really only as large of an issue so as long as the es meta is in.


Worth noting I don't mind es being a better endgame option, but currently life builds are fucking terrible options, especially melee...

The issue shouldn't be an issue at all. Certainly GGG or anyone for that matter can run a simulator on how often you would grab a specific enchant. If you have a game rely on trade in which GGG has stated then you have to know people can enchant anything and will chooose what is deemed to be "meta" in order to maximize there profit. So there are scenarios where you can't do either because both grinding it out and trading for it become this game of random.

Why is that the Gloves and Boots are farmable, sure I may have to put in 1-15 runs depending on my luck, but its doable. Then the helmet enchants become entirely inconsistent.

Sure I could buy a Hubris EQ enchant for dirt cheap, but I am also crippling my build and becoming weaker for it. And we all know life builds need everything they can get at this point.

It's just a shame because you want to look at everything possible to upgrade your character and work towards. When you theorycraft a build, enchantments could have been a bigger part of that. For most builds its a bonus, for some.. a larger spike in power.

I always play life builds, I don't really like ES as a mechanic. I generally stray away from things abyssus. Devoto's I would use for a cyclone build, not much else. So I generally need to look for rare helmets, which you just don't see a whole lot.

I've probably done around 150-200 lab runs, I did most of them when it first came out merciless, I've tried doing more when uber lab came out but obviously the mechanic didn't change. Never once getting an enchant related to the build I ran to get it. Now I just run for AC points and leave it at that. I get the game is grindy by its nature but why does literally everything have to be nearing insanity when it comes to this game.

It would entirely be possible to design it that way, rares are designed to give different tiers of values and random values inside its tier. Make it un blessed orb-able. Getting nothing for several leagues is a kick in the balls. If you got 1%, then you can do the lab again and reroll to attempt a higher value.

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e1337donkey wrote:

What makes the Lab unique is the enchants you can get at that end, not the treasure. You can get those anywhere else in the game.

If you have a trick to get Death's door outside of the lab, please share it with us.

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Fruz wrote:

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e1337donkey wrote:

What makes the Lab unique is the enchants you can get at that end, not the treasure. You can get those anywhere else in the game.

If you have a trick to get Death's door outside of the lab, please share it with us.

poe.trade :P

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e1337donkey wrote:

It would entirely be possible to design it that way, rares are designed to give different tiers of values and random values inside its tier. Make it un blessed orb-able. Getting nothing for several leagues is a kick in the balls. If you got 1%, then you can do the lab again and reroll to attempt a higher value.

Thats what I am saying is that its counter intuitive to the games design to not allow for implicit to be able to be blessed.

I doubt GGG ever makes getting enchantments easier and I don't really like the idea of being able to select the specific skill enchant you want, but it rolls.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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e1337donkey wrote:

What makes the Lab unique is the enchants you can get at that end, not the treasure. You can get those anywhere else in the game.

If you have a trick to get Death's door outside of the lab, please share it with us.

poe.trade :P

Well, that applies to enchants too.
Depending on the availability, of course.

Personally, my Sunder guardian had couple of choices that would have satisfied me about enchants ( like ... I was using couple of curses, warcries, and even a shield charge one would have been ok, idk ), but at the end I was satisfied :



Could I have traded for this ?
Definitely not.
Did I make it a big deal ? No, that's just the icing on the cake anyway, I was really surprised and it felt really good when I got it though, because it's freaking unlikely to happen.