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Shovelcut wrote:
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
I'm happy to see that so many people who share my hatred of the lab are stepping up and voicing their displeasure
Been ongoing since Ascendancy, nothing new. lol
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VigilanteCat wrote:
On the other hand I'm also sad to see that (in an otherwise very friendly and helpful community) many of the people who do enjoy the lab also seem to be incredibly toxic human beings, and call people "noob" and "scrub" and say things like "git gud", when in fact most of us are neither "noobs" nor "scrubs" and have been playing the game for a long time and are plenty skilled.
Well, to be fair, in a lot of those cases it's really a l2p issue. If you're coming to the forums to rage post "fuck the lab, izaro 1 shot me" then you probably need to "git gud". :P
Also, your existing skills are irrelevant if you're tackling new content that has mechanics that you don't understand. And some have shown they are unwilling to learn or even try.
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
What if the shoe was on the other foot and the only way to gain ascendancy was to [insert your most hated game aspect here]? How would you feel then? I digress...
I'd man-up and beat that shit. Or I'd go play something else if it was too big of an issue to move past. But I wouldn't linger here for any extended period of time trying to change a game I no longer play.
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
All those people who are saying "remove lab" don't actually mean they want it removed from the game outright (that will never happen, so all the lab lovers can rest easy), what they want is to not be forced to do something they despise as an integral part to the building of their characters, and saying "remove it" is just an easy way to express their unhappiness with the system.
I think we already were "resting easy" on this one, this was the best chance for a major change to the laby system. But that didn't happen.
Shorter norm laby and less trials are fucking fantastic though!
VigilanteCat did an exemplary job in explaining in a very constructive and friendly manner what the thought was the main problem (communication issues, community consensus norms and norms of community dialogue) while simultaneously making it (yet again) even clearer that there is a significant portion of this community who dislike the lab. He actually has an argument, which looks a bit like this:
Premise 1: Claim X: Those who dislike the lab do so only because they have poor skills
Premise 2: People with sufficient skills to complete the lab still dislike it
Conclusion: Claim X is false
Then you (Shovelcut) claim that his skills are irrelevant and that many people complain about the lab because they lack the time and patience to master it, and thus make recourse to Claim X. That's highly illogical.
His point (as is the point from others) is that PoE is a game, and as such should have some inherent quantum of fun in playing it. We have all completed the lab and earned our Ascendancies -- but many of us did not like it. This does not mean we cannot do it; our having done it is proof enough. It is "merely" not what we expect and wish to do in an isometric ARPG. What is wrong with that? Your claims are not only irrational, they smack of the absurd -- I am reminded of Monty Python's Spam sketch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
Why can't we just have bacon without the spam? We are already willing to purchase a meal at this restaurant, we just do not wish to have to consume this one particular foodstuff.
I will claim: You (as do a great deal of others) find some pleasure in running the lab. FINE. Enjoy. But I will claim that your pleasure is instrumental, not inherent: That is, you enjoy running the lab not for its own sake, but for the sake of the rewards. People enjoy running the lab because of the enchantments to items they can sell for large quantities of currency or because of the loot rewards for killing Izaro, Argus, or certain GCP-chests. My claim can be refuted by removing these aspects from the lab and determining whether anyone would still run them. Because of low mob density, where would the fun be? In dodging traps between otherwise empty rooms? Do you really enjoy doing that? If so, please do say so. That would be surprising but interesting evidence.
Otherwise, please consider the authenticity and veracity of some of the claims being made by your fellow exiles here. Here the executive summary of these, put into terms as simplistic as possible (Manifesto of the UnLab):
1. We like killing shit. We don't like running around not killing shit.
2. This (killing shit) is an inherent component of PoE. The Lab prevents us from engaging in our primary source of amusement (killing shit) by making us run around not killing shit.
3. We have the skills to not run around not killing shit; we just dislike it.
4. We like killing shit, because it is inherently pleasing (perhaps it allows us to feel powerful, perhaps it allows us to engage in the selfish delusion that our "build" is "gud")
5. We also like killing shit, because it is also instrumentally pleasing -- we get loot. Furthermore, this loot is gated behind RNG restrictions requiring us to kill more and more and/or increasingly challenging shit in order to get it.
6. We do not mind better loot being gated behind challenges only completable by demonstration of skill.
7. We are not against gated rewards. We only dislike rewards gated behind content that is displeasing.
8. We want the lab to be in the game for the benefit of those who are willing to run it. We wish them the best in running around not killing shit. But we don't want to have it be integral to our gaming experience.
That being said, I would like to add that my stake in this matter is relatively small. I am not arguing for personal or egoistic gains. As I said, I have the skill to complete the lab, I do so in order to gain my Ascendancy points and get done with it -- fine. (Yes, I do not like it, but I do it for the purely instrumental reward.) I find it dissapointing to admit that I like the rest of the content of PoE enough that I will spend a total of an hour or so (4 lab runs in total) performing a chore. I just want to make it clear that there are people here who utilize reasonable arguments and who are not whining; not everybody who utters constructive criticism is a whiner. This is a basic element of rational discourse. For the sake of progress in this game (having developers be able to recognize and utilize constructive feedback), the rational claims of those with whom you may disagree should not be vilified.
Underrated stats: Basic human decency, small quantum of respect, microportion of compassion
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Posted byonomastikon#6270on May 18, 2017, 8:40:20 AM
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"
Xfing wrote:
You do realize that the Labyrinth is entirely optional, don't you
Even our maze-lord and master, Chris has stated that the ascendancies are now mandatory.
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Posted byDeletedon May 18, 2017, 8:46:30 AM
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"
onomastikon wrote:
"
Shovelcut wrote:
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
I'm happy to see that so many people who share my hatred of the lab are stepping up and voicing their displeasure
Been ongoing since Ascendancy, nothing new. lol
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
On the other hand I'm also sad to see that (in an otherwise very friendly and helpful community) many of the people who do enjoy the lab also seem to be incredibly toxic human beings, and call people "noob" and "scrub" and say things like "git gud", when in fact most of us are neither "noobs" nor "scrubs" and have been playing the game for a long time and are plenty skilled.
Well, to be fair, in a lot of those cases it's really a l2p issue. If you're coming to the forums to rage post "fuck the lab, izaro 1 shot me" then you probably need to "git gud". :P
Also, your existing skills are irrelevant if you're tackling new content that has mechanics that you don't understand. And some have shown they are unwilling to learn or even try.
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
What if the shoe was on the other foot and the only way to gain ascendancy was to [insert your most hated game aspect here]? How would you feel then? I digress...
I'd man-up and beat that shit. Or I'd go play something else if it was too big of an issue to move past. But I wouldn't linger here for any extended period of time trying to change a game I no longer play.
"
VigilanteCat wrote:
All those people who are saying "remove lab" don't actually mean they want it removed from the game outright (that will never happen, so all the lab lovers can rest easy), what they want is to not be forced to do something they despise as an integral part to the building of their characters, and saying "remove it" is just an easy way to express their unhappiness with the system.
I think we already were "resting easy" on this one, this was the best chance for a major change to the laby system. But that didn't happen.
Shorter norm laby and less trials are fucking fantastic though!
VigilanteCat did an exemplary job in explaining in a very constructive and friendly manner what the thought was the main problem (communication issues, community consensus norms and norms of community dialogue) while simultaneously making it (yet again) even clearer that there is a significant portion of this community who dislike the lab. He actually has an argument, which looks a bit like this:
Premise 1: Claim X: Those who dislike the lab do so only because they have poor skills
Premise 2: People with sufficient skills to complete the lab still dislike it
Conclusion: Claim X is false
Then you (Shovelcut) claim that his skills are irrelevant and that many people complain about the lab because they lack the time and patience to master it, and thus make recourse to Claim X. That's highly illogical.
His point (as is the point from others) is that PoE is a game, and as such should have some inherent quantum of fun in playing it. We have all completed the lab and earned our Ascendancies -- but many of us did not like it. This does not mean we cannot do it; our having done it is proof enough. It is "merely" not what we expect and wish to do in an isometric ARPG. What is wrong with that? Your claims are not only irrational, they smack of the absurd -- I am reminded of Monty Python's Spam sketch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
Why can't we just have bacon without the spam? We are already willing to purchase a meal at this restaurant, we just do not wish to have to consume this one particular foodstuff.
I will claim: You (as do a great deal of others) find some pleasure in running the lab. FINE. Enjoy. But I will claim that your pleasure is instrumental, not inherent: That is, you enjoy running the lab not for its own sake, but for the sake of the rewards. People enjoy running the lab because of the enchantments to items they can sell for large quantities of currency or because of the loot rewards for killing Izaro, Argus, or certain GCP-chests. My claim can be refuted by removing these aspects from the lab and determining whether anyone would still run them. Because of low mob density, where would the fun be? In dodging traps between otherwise empty rooms? Do you really enjoy doing that? If so, please do say so. That would be surprising but interesting evidence.
Otherwise, please consider the authenticity and veracity of some of the claims being made by your fellow exiles here. Here the executive summary of these, put into terms as simplistic as possible (Manifesto of the UnLab):
1. We like killing shit. We don't like running around not killing shit.
2. This (killing shit) is an inherent component of PoE. The Lab prevents us from engaging in our primary source of amusement (killing shit) by making us run around not killing shit.
3. We have the skills to not run around not killing shit; we just dislike it.
4. We like killing shit, because it is inherently pleasing (perhaps it allows us to feel powerful, perhaps it allows us to engage in the selfish delusion that our "build" is "gud")
5. We also like killing shit, because it is also instrumentally pleasing -- we get loot. Furthermore, this loot is gated behind RNG restrictions requiring us to kill more and more and/or increasingly challenging shit in order to get it.
6. We do not mind better loot being gated behind challenges only completable by demonstration of skill.
7. We are not against gated rewards. We only dislike rewards gated behind content that is displeasing.
8. We want the lab to be in the game for the benefit of those who are willing to run it. We wish them the best in running around not killing shit. But we don't want to have it be integral to our gaming experience.
That being said, I would like to add that my stake in this matter is relatively small. I am not arguing for personal or egoistic gains. As I said, I have the skill to complete the lab, I do so in order to gain my Ascendancy points and get done with it -- fine. (Yes, I do not like it, but I do it for the purely instrumental reward.) I find it dissapointing to admit that I like the rest of the content of PoE enough that I will spend a total of an hour or so (4 lab runs in total) performing a chore. I just want to make it clear that there are people here who utilize reasonable arguments and who are not whining; not everybody who utters constructive criticism is a whiner. This is a basic element of rational discourse. For the sake of progress in this game (having developers be able to recognize and utilize constructive feedback), the rational claims of those with whom you may disagree should not be vilified.
onomastikon, that was well put and reflects the thoughts and feelings for many. An ARPG game play is about kill monsters, get loot not running past screens full of trap gauntlets. Thank you for voicing your opinion on the disliked labyrinth. As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. 101 new account names added to the list from just this one thread for a total list length of 875. Over 320 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 870 posters in support
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on May 18, 2017, 1:58:11 PM
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"
The_Reporter wrote:
"
Xfing wrote:
You do realize that the Labyrinth is entirely optional, don't you
Even our maze-lord and master, Chris has stated that the ascendancies are now mandatory.
Well maybe to kill the Shaper they are. You can still comfortably do any pre-Ascendancy content without them I'm sure.
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Posted byXfing#5293on May 18, 2017, 5:13:04 PM
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Xfing wrote:
"
The_Reporter wrote:
"
Xfing wrote:
You do realize that the Labyrinth is entirely optional, don't you
Even our maze-lord and master, Chris has stated that the ascendancies are now mandatory.
Well maybe to kill the Shaper they are. You can still comfortably do any pre-Ascendancy content without them I'm sure.
If you want to argue that the ascendancy points are optional then you can make the same argument about almost everything in the game being optional. It's optional to wear boots, use all your passive skill points, or using 5 flasks, for example. It's really an inane argument. Playing the game is optional which is the better option for me than playing Labyrinth. Although I do admit that after Labyrinth was released I did play a couple of leagues without going into the Labyrinth and another one or two more going into the labyrinth just for the points. The best option, IMHO, would be for GGG to make the ascendancy points available for rewards associated with playing ARPG content, specifically kill-monster-get-loot, instead of platformer content, specifically jump-here-run-there.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on May 18, 2017, 5:34:37 PM
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onomastikon wrote:
Then you (Shovelcut) claim that his skills are irrelevant and that many people complain about the lab because they lack the time and patience to master it, and thus make recourse to Claim X. That's highly illogical.
Actually, I wasn't saying that his skills specifically were irrelevant. I'm referring to what he was saying about how some in the community reacts to certain laby hate posts with replies such as "git gud/noob/scrub".
My point was that if you're an old experienced player that hasn't played since Ascendancy, there is a lot to learn about the laby before you can run it efficiently. And people are used to just steamrolling content and that just doesn't fly in laby for most builds especially if you don't know all the mechanics. Would you say that the laby mechanics are very intuitive and easy to pick up on?
A vast majority of the laby hate feedback does have a little to do with l2p issues. It's really not illogical at all. Here's an example:
Guy comes to the forums and posts "stupid fucking lab, almost 1 shot by izaro and then out of nowhere I'm desync'd into a trap in the final fight and rip. fuck this game".
He ripped because he stood in the green teleport skill thingy that Izaro does. Because he didn't know anything about it, it's a l2p issue. Is it not?
Sure it's not every case, I never claimed that that's the only reason people hate the laby. But once you've read enough laby hate threads you start to see a pattern.
"
onomastikon wrote:
I will claim: You (as do a great deal of others) find some pleasure in running the lab. FINE. Enjoy. But I will claim that your pleasure is instrumental, not inherent: That is, you enjoy running the lab not for its own sake, but for the sake of the rewards. People enjoy running the lab because of the enchantments to items they can sell for large quantities of currency or because of the loot rewards for killing Izaro, Argus, or certain GCP-chests. My claim can be refuted by removing these aspects from the lab and determining whether anyone would still run them. Because of low mob density, where would the fun be? In dodging traps between otherwise empty rooms? Do you really enjoy doing that? If so, please do say so. That would be surprising but interesting evidence.
Well your claims are completely incorrect in my case. I just love running the laby rewards or not. It's been a great monotony breaker when it comes to leveling. And I'm not an enchant farmer either, tbh 98% of the time I'm completely ignoring enchants and uber laby.
"
onomastikon wrote:
Otherwise, please consider the authenticity and veracity of some of the claims being made by your fellow exiles here. Here the executive summary of these, put into terms as simplistic as possible (Manifesto of the UnLab):
1. We like killing shit. We don't like running around not killing shit.
2. This (killing shit) is an inherent component of PoE. The Lab prevents us from engaging in our primary source of amusement (killing shit) by making us run around not killing shit.
3. We have the skills to not run around not killing shit; we just dislike it.
4. We like killing shit, because it is inherently pleasing (perhaps it allows us to feel powerful, perhaps it allows us to engage in the selfish delusion that our "build" is "gud")
5. We also like killing shit, because it is also instrumentally pleasing -- we get loot. Furthermore, this loot is gated behind RNG restrictions requiring us to kill more and more and/or increasingly challenging shit in order to get it.
6. We do not mind better loot being gated behind challenges only completable by demonstration of skill.
7. We are not against gated rewards. We only dislike rewards gated behind content that is displeasing.
8. We want the lab to be in the game for the benefit of those who are willing to run it. We wish them the best in running around not killing shit. But we don't want to have it be integral to our gaming experience.
Well then kill shit and get loot? I don't understand this argument, there is plenty of shit to kill in the laby. There are more mobs than traps in there. *shrugs*
"
onomastikon wrote:
I just want to make it clear that there are people here who utilize reasonable arguments and who are not whining; not everybody who utters constructive criticism is a whiner. This is a basic element of rational discourse. For the sake of progress in this game (having developers be able to recognize and utilize constructive feedback), the rational claims of those with whom you may disagree should not be vilified.
I totally agree with you. I've gone through every thread in Turtledoves list and I can guarantee you that there is some quality feedback in there. The problem is that it's buried under a ton of shit posts.
Just a lowly standard player. May RNGesus be with you.
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Posted byShovelcut#3450on May 18, 2017, 5:36:02 PM
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Shovelcut wrote:
I totally agree with you. I've gone through every thread in Turtledoves list and I can guarantee you that there is some quality feedback in there. The problem is that it's buried under a ton of shit posts.
Fair enough. Thanks for the constructive reply. Tastes differ, and that's also fair enough. I think you are in the minority, but that's also fine. I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said "efficiently" -- lab runners usually avoid everything (Traps, monsters) and focus on killing only Argus and Izaro as fast as possible while amassing as many keys as possible. I'm not saying this is inherently "bad", I'm just saying it's not killing enough shit to suit my tastes. You disagree. We both disagree on the degree to which people agree about this. All good. I think in the post in which I originally quoted from you I got a bit agitated at your response to Vigilantecat:
"
Shovelcut wrote:
What if the shoe was on the other foot and the only way to gain ascendancy was to [insert your most hated game aspect here]? How would you feel then? I digress...
I'd man-up and beat that shit. Or I'd go play something else if it was too big of an issue to move past. But I wouldn't linger here for any extended period of time trying to change a game I no longer play.
It seems to me as if you were, here echoing the faulty argumentation against which I was trying to argue, namely: Person A says "I don't like this", Person B says "You can't do this". I just want to reiterate: it's a question of taste in his argument, not skill.
I don't want to beat a dead horse. I didn't realize that Turtledove was composing a list, I have had a brief look and concur: a significant portion of it is baseless, unconstructive whining. I do not wish to be associated with such a list.
Good luck to all
Underrated stats: Basic human decency, small quantum of respect, microportion of compassion
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Posted byonomastikon#6270on May 19, 2017, 2:50:45 AM
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"
Turtledove wrote:
onomastikon, that was well put and reflects the thoughts and feelings for many. An ARPG game play is about kill monsters, get loot not running past screens full of trap gauntlets. Thank you for voicing your opinion on the disliked labyrinth. As the list grows longer our voice grows stronger. 101 new account names added to the list from just this one thread for a total list length of 875. Over 320 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 870 posters in support
Thank you. Could you kindly remove me from that list? I do not wish to be associated with it. I am not calling for any changes. It is true: I dislike the Lab -- but, as I thought to have mentioned, I do not believe it is changeworthy. I am not forced to do it except to obtain my Ascendancy points, which amounts to about 90 minutes or so of unhappy waste per character; it just seems like too much effort to change all of that for my benefit. I am not saying it is good; I am merely saying it is unpleasant and wasteful.
I posted my post merely to attempt to help assuage difficulties in communication.
I also do not believe that compiling a list is a constructive contriubtion to good communication amongst us. I think it shortens many arguments unnecessarily. In this case, adding my voice to it does an injustice to what I believe to be saying: I don't want it changed, but I would be happy to see the discourse about it changed.
Thank you and good day and good luck
Underrated stats: Basic human decency, small quantum of respect, microportion of compassion
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Posted byonomastikon#6270on May 19, 2017, 2:55:41 AM
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"
onomastikon wrote:
I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said "efficiently" -- lab runners usually avoid everything (Traps, monsters) and focus on killing only Argus and Izaro as fast as possible while amassing as many keys as possible. I'm not saying this is inherently "bad", I'm just saying it's not killing enough shit to suit my tastes.
Running the laby efficiently doesn't necessarily mean you skip the mobs and stack keys, that's what I would consider efficient laby farming.
What I would consider necessary to efficiently complete the laby would be
- Knowing how the Izaro buffs work and how to deal with them.
- Knowing how to navigate through traps and deal with them without losing too much HP or with little flask usage without having to stop and study the layout (the trap gauntlets all seem to have a certain number of layouts and after a few dozen or so runs you can easily just blast through traps without flasks or movement skills)
- Knowing how to use the Map at each door and how the laby rooms are generally laid out.
It's not much of a list, but it's mostly not intuitive to pick up on either.
Argus and the treasure keys aren't necessary things to complete the laby and for the most part you can ignore them. Unless you're farming laby ofc.
Try killing mobs as you move through the laby, you might be surprised how much currency and decent loot you can get from 1 laby run. I'm not talking about full clearing each room, just kill shit on your way to the door if it's in your path. The XP isn't bad either if you're around the mlvl of the laby you're running. :)
You're probably right about me being a minority. I'm a long time fan of old school rogue-likes, I always loved the rogue-like feeling I got from the PoE races and the introduction of the laby was like a wet dream for me. Still hoping for an Endless Ledge-like laby race, but I'd likely be the only one playing it. hehe
Just a lowly standard player. May RNGesus be with you.
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Posted byShovelcut#3450on May 19, 2017, 4:03:17 AM
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"
Antares_Black_Sky wrote:
"
Lykkoith wrote:
Hell yeah, you want to have the same rewards that someone who actually accepts the challenge, at the cost of nothing. You want ascendancy points and enchantments, right? But you don't want to get them by yourself, neither to pay someone to get them for you. Lab is as optional as ascendancies are. You don't like it? Ok, just don't do it, all you have to do is forget about getting those rewards.
"Hey guys! I want a 100 ex gear for my build, but I don't want to even think about farming them myself. Can you please give it to me for free?" Oh c'mon! Are you serious!?
Ridicolous post. Moreover: ascendancies optional? Even more ridicolous ;) Without them, a duelist/witch cannot specialize at maximum effectiveness in block, a marauder not at maximum in leech, a shadow not at maximum in crit etc
People is NOT asking ascendancy points for free. People is asking to detach them from lab, maybe making them a reward for killing the gods (lore: that god's aura was hindering your innate abilities, and now that you have killed him/her, some of your powers return to you). And this is not too much difficult to understand, for someone that possess at least two neurons anyway
And the sad thing is: GGG continues to hear to people like you...
Time to have a long pause with this game: i was thinking to give some serious money to GGG for 3.0, but after this thread about Lab, i have totally rethinked my decision
And who said you can specialize "at maximum effectiveness" (your own words) while ignoring certain contents in the game? The ridiculous thing here, is that you and some others want to get "maximum" rewards al low or no price. Ascendancies are as optional as "maximum effectiveness" is. You can still beat endgame content without being optimal or "maximum effectiveness". You want it anyway? Ok, then fight for it, that's simple. I myself, plan my builds at 6 ascendancies because I know I don't need the last 2 and they can be too hard/annoying to get. I choose to forget that 2 last ascendancy points, so yes, it is optional, whatever you realize that or not.
Getting ascendancies out of the lab and granting them for killing certain bosses... bosses that you will eventually fight as they're mandatory for the story? Oh c'mon! That way, ascendancies wouldn't even be rewarding, becoming Ascendant/Elem/whatever ascendancy you want would be just anecdotal, as you know you'll get them as part of the story. No challenge, no reward, and actually not an option, since you will face that bosses whatever you want the ascendancies or not.
The fact, is that GGG doesn't listen to me or to people like me, they listen to majority of their community and do what they think it's the best for their game. The sad part of this is that people like you think that the minority you represent deserves to be listened above the majority of people who actually understand that there must be no high reward without high effort.
That being said, lab is the result of many people working on it's development during only they know how much time. They can fix small things here and there, but they simply will not remove their own work just because a vast minority of their community is too lazy and/or unskiled to handle it, and too greedy/ridicolous to pay a few chaos for someone to help them. If you are at the same time lazy, unskilled, greedy and ridicolous... hey mate, that's not GGG's problem.
Feel free to ckeck some skill suggestions:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2253742
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Posted byLykkoith#7802on May 19, 2017, 5:05:44 AM
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