On Balance Feedback and Charge Changes

"

Amduscias wrote:

I'm welcome the powercharge change (less crit more damage), much needed in my opinion the lower the always crit meta.
I do believe the 4% more damage on frenzy charges were better, with all the item's in the game that grant frenzys, that now must be revisited.


I would propose another change, that binds charges somewhat more to the attribute that they derive from:
I would give all charges 2 % more damage (yes even endurance... it's called balance)

To be usable, every charge needs accumulative 30 statspoints of their relating attribute.
So to use 6 frenzycharges one would need 180 dexterity to use them.. only got 167 dex.. only 5 frenzy maximum available.

With this we bind the charges somewhat to the stats and they have a flavor, but you are not forced too much in an attack or caster build. Every build can still get every charge, but you are not forced to gain frenzy charges to ramp up your damage as a templar which is strength and intelligence after all.

I do believe this change would be implemented easily and would broaden the game options players have. It would

Just stupid. I dont want charges to depend on the amount of stat points i have. I already need to get across the tree for specific damage and defense nodes, now you want to force me to get stats i dont need?

"

etkratos wrote:

Ok, my 2 cents.

Honestly i think you are making a huge mess. Too many radical changes all at once, that's the problem.

I mean, game's too easy for certain builds (vp+es lol)? Then buff difficulty so these can't shit on the shaper anymore AND bring other, weaker builds/skills/items to the level of power these (however expensive) characters have.

This is how you encourage build diversity. Player have to be tempted by what they think it could be fun, and at the same time they have to be given a chance (if the idea is good) to make what they think is fun also powerful enough. Now try to make elemental hit not even effective, but just playable.

You're doing the exact opposite and narrowing our options instead (by a huge margin i could add).

Also, while having new content on a regular base is really nice, you should not forget the old stuff (again elemental hit, for example) and try to polish/improve it if needed. While at the same time you are not forced to bring stuff the game is already cluttered with, like uniques, on a regular basis. Maybe upgrade the ones that already exist, and that are useless even for levelling, before?

In the end i still love poe, and i don't like to whine about a game, since in the end i will be playing it in any case. For this, you have my thanks, but you asked for an opinion and this is mine.

Best regards, and good luck.

+1

Hello,
i have more trust in GGG than in those who post on reddit and please consider that those who post on reddit or the forums are not the entire poe community. i think there is a huge silent part of it that just trust in ggg and there long term balance changes. And even if you crush the meta and remove some fun builds its better the find new ways to play and keep poe fresh.
ty have a nice weekend

What is the point in playing this game again?
Compared to the best patch 2.3, when they still introduced powerful items (voidheart) we'll have to play weaker and inferior characters?
EVERYTHING NERFED:
1) CoC discharge no longer a thing
2) Blade Vortex is shit with 5 hits per second, 50 stack BV was a lot better
3) Area nerfed to shit, scaling area is boring and insignificant now (RIP old slayer)
4) Curses nerfed significantly, Shaper has 80% less curse effect (RIP old occultist)
5) Poison and ignite will be non-existent in 3.0
6) crit multiplier nerfed
7) various uniques nerfed
8) projectile nerfs as adjustments for poison
9) various skill gem nerfed (less duration), vaal skills nerfed (vaal spark, haste, discipline)
10) ES nerfed, vaal pact nerfed, ghost reaver nerfed
11) finally, have some alignments and charges nerfed
12) RIP assassin

Nice game, very interested to make significantly weaker character, compared to what I was able to make a year ago. Oh wait, there is no point in playing this new expansion!

Here is another popular build-enabling unique that gets destroyed with the change to the frenzy charges:



Enemies you Kill have a 20% chance to Explode, dealing a quarter of their maximum Life as Chaos Damage

What you do with this, is to scale the 25% of the monsters life up to 100%, so that the damage is enough to kill a second monster that stands right next to the initial monster that you kill. This will then be enough for that second monster to also be killed and to explode for another 100 % chaos damage of the monsters life. This way, its possible to obliterate dense packs of monsters. It makes skills with bad AOE viable because its not necessarily required to go for every single monster.

Now a big part in scaling from 25% to 100% is done with frenzy charges! For example with 7 frenzy charges it still requires ~212% increased chaos and generic damage on the tree and the gear to reach 100%. It's still a lot of invest, but it is doable.

With the change to frenzy charges, the explosion will no longer be scaled by the charges (because it's not an attack) and the scaling solely needs to be done with increased chaos and generic damage from the tree and the gear. It will require 300% increased damage from the tree and the gear. This is not achievable, even with generic damage on all jewels and with chaos damage crafted rings and amuletts.

Thus, I really dont like the change to the frenzy charges. What's the point? Why was this necessary? What problem are you solving with this? Please revert it!

"

Amduscias wrote:

I would propose another change, that binds charges somewhat more to the attribute that they derive from:
I would give all charges 2 % more damage (yes even endurance... it's called balance)

ENDURANCE CHARGE IS A DEFENSIVE CHARGE - NO DAMAGE FOR IT... BUT IT CAN HAVE A 1% MAX ELEMENTAL RESIST + 4% MORE ARMOUR

To be usable, every charge needs accumulative 30 statspoints of their relating attribute.
So to use 6 frenzycharges one would need 180 dexterity to use them.. only got 167 dex.. only 5 frenzy maximum available.

NICE IDEIA - FANTASTIC - THIS WILL BREAK SOME ABUSE OF CHARGES AND MAKE HIS IDENTITY

But, some builds really need some ways to scaling GENERIC dagame.

Like the last post said.
Detonate dead (ok, its fire... but obliteration not).

Totens reflect 8% his life as damage build from Marauder ascendency
Caustic Arrow (his cloud)
POison (ok, it dont need more damage, so please, make poison stack only 8 x)

"

Amduscias wrote:

I'm welcome the powercharge change (less crit more damage), much needed in my opinion the lower the always crit meta.
I do believe the 4% more damage on frenzy charges were better, with all the item's in the game that grant frenzys, that now must be revisited.


I would propose another change, that binds charges somewhat more to the attribute that they derive from:
I would give all charges 2 % more damage (yes even endurance... it's called balance)

To be usable, every charge needs accumulative 30 statspoints of their relating attribute.
So to use 6 frenzycharges one would need 180 dexterity to use them.. only got 167 dex.. only 5 frenzy maximum available.

With this we bind the charges somewhat to the stats and they have a flavor, but you are not forced too much in an attack or caster build. Every build can still get every charge, but you are not forced to gain frenzy charges to ramp up your damage as a templar which is strength and intelligence after all.

I do believe this change would be implemented easily and would broaden the game options players have. It would

Yea, because Icestorm definitely needs to be stronger! /s

This won't work because some skills/gear scale up and off stat points and most of those that do aren't weak, by any means. All this will do is make them that much stronger than skills/gear that don't. We don't need more restrictions on builds. We need more variety. That proposed idea needs to go back to the drawing board.

"

shinigamiscall wrote:

"

Amduscias wrote:

I'm welcome the powercharge change (less crit more damage), much needed in my opinion the lower the always crit meta.
I do believe the 4% more damage on frenzy charges were better, with all the item's in the game that grant frenzys, that now must be revisited.


I would propose another change, that binds charges somewhat more to the attribute that they derive from:
I would give all charges 2 % more damage (yes even endurance... it's called balance)

To be usable, every charge needs accumulative 30 statspoints of their relating attribute.
So to use 6 frenzycharges one would need 180 dexterity to use them.. only got 167 dex.. only 5 frenzy maximum available.

With this we bind the charges somewhat to the stats and they have a flavor, but you are not forced too much in an attack or caster build. Every build can still get every charge, but you are not forced to gain frenzy charges to ramp up your damage as a templar which is strength and intelligence after all.

I do believe this change would be implemented easily and would broaden the game options players have. It would

Yea, because Icestorm definitely needs to be stronger! /s

This won't work because some skills/gear scale up and off stat points and most of those that do aren't weak, by any means. All this will do is make them that much stronger than skills/gear that don't. We don't need more restrictions on builds. We need more variety. That proposed idea needs to go back to the drawing board.

More like whoever wrote it needs to be fired rather proposed the idea.

"

GGG_Neon wrote:

Charges
We will re-evaluate the Power and Frenzy charges situation over the weekend. It would be very useful to hear your explanation of why certain builds or items have been damaged (or improved too much) by the change, with specifics and explanations. Many of the posts so far have just said "X is ruined". While the initial feedback has been somewhat helpful, proper discussion and analysis from the community will really help us fine-tune (or abandon) this change.

Some feedback that isn't just "X got rekt!"

I would like to give an alternate reason for why i think this change is bad in general apart from
"my deeeeps"

Utility

More importantly utility when discussing two-hand/staff casters. I know currently a niche i reckon in the top tier game-play, for obvious reasons(= move speed penalty in correlation to 1-hand move options)
As a result, raider that covers this weakness entirely was in my opinion the only option to allow
staff-casters to "somewhat" compete with normal casters in therms of movement.

Elemental route with phasing and spell dodge has good synergy with this type of game-play.

The frenzy route offered some benefits that these builds do well with

- attack speed allows better leap slam when needed
- move speed counters disadvantage of being restricted to leap slam and other "bad" movement skills
- cast speed per frenzy
- current damage multiplier on frenzy makes up for not going a strictly caster ascendancy

Now as a result of the above, raider is a worthwhile ascendancy in this situation, your in a pretty bad spot for casters in general but the combined benefits of these factors make it a relative good trade-off.

So while the damage gain per frenzy is relevant, it is only relevant in relation with the utility benefits it also provides making the whole package an efficient trade-off for not going a caster specific ascendancy.

Now with the damage multiplier being gone, the whole trade-off in my opinion is much less efficient and probably to be discarded as an option. Though there is no other ascendancy that can cover for the movement speed apart from pathfinder.

As a result, pathfinder is probably going to be the go to for these type of builds with the following restrictions.

- be a lightning staff caster
- have funds to buy potions

Potion efficiency with wise-oak/vinktars will probably make up for the frenzy dps lost and an adrenaline quicksilver is most likely faster then raider.

So an arche-type that could currently use raider and pathfinder get's restricted to pathfinder and to lightning only.(lack of fire/cold pen potions to scale)

That's odd in itself since that side of the tree is centered around cold damage mainly.(as it's main elemental attribute, i know projectile/elemental etc is also prevalent there)

Changing the topic,

Trappers/trap relation

Tinkerskin as a concept

- first off, the mods should be changed to proq on trap throw with heavily reduced value's, there is no logic behind disabling this trap chest to function with the main pull of saboteur(chain reaction)

Further more it would increase the interesting/unique part of this chest and people might go for more traps per throw if it's efficient for them.

- tinkerskin should get 2% move speed per frenzy charge if the current changes go true

(- ranger's master sapper should get it's trap damage% removed and get a 15% trap damage/3% trap throwing speed per frenzy charge modifier. In relation to tinkerskin relevant)

(- saboteur should get it's "change to trigger an additional time" on chain reaction removed and replaced with 2% more trap damage per frenzy, makes frenzy more relevant for him, though with master sapper and tinkerskin in the mix not the BiS option
In my opinion he should also get 15 mana gained per kill per power charge, to give a relation to those charges as-well)



With changes like this i see frenzy trappers still as a relevant option, via either one of the tree mentioned options.(which force frenzy's to take on trap oriented perks)

This got pretty long so ill keep it at that, hope this is somewhat relevant.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : as a somewhat snide remark on the first mentioned topic (frenzy/raider relation to staff-casters and movement problems), if movement in the current game state was not an issue, neither would be my concern.

But that's basically an overarching fuck up in the current game-state and the "meta" that is being pushed by design.
Resulting in requiring sufficient move speed/ability to even compete at a normal efficiency rate.

i'm just a small cog in the machine, but the way I see:

all players start with 3 of each charges and previous to the last patch said players could use all three regardless of build and net some benefit...

can you say that this holds true any longer?

You all (GGG) have the passive tree histories for 100% of everyone in legacy league and standard/HC; if what you say is true what % of characters have opted for 4/4++ power/frenzy builds? I for one hardly ever opt for extra charges outside of a build that can optimize them.