Trade Manifesto

"

Aias_o_Telamonios wrote:

P.S. People not logged in (100% scammers) are still shown as online ? Nothing is mentioned.

"A trade-specific blacklist to hide item listings from abusive players."

"

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade.

Geez, I wonder why that is happening, your trading system is so amazing!



/s

Can't say I expected anything better, knowing your core ideas about trading and how stubborn you are about them. What a tremandous waste of time though! People will still use poe.trade since it is faster anyway(proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/7afj38/comparison_in_live_search_speed_poetrade_vs/).

"

Xbox_Jetras wrote:

Chris, you are mostly correct in your assessment, but there is another option between the 2 games. The drop rate doesn't need to be reduced, you simply need a way to reduce the number of items in the game that could find their way on the market.

Other games do this by binding items that the character actually equips and uses, but I don't think that is the GGG way, since you want something different. I would propose a different approach.

Simply encourage player to destroy items for a reward. Maybe a new character/hideout décor that breaks items down and can bestow currency or better yet a new orb shard. I propose a new "Memory Orb" that reduces the death penalty by 20% (so reduce 20% of the 10% penalty would be an 8% penalty) for the next death that occurs. 40 shards could make an Orb. Maybe Memory Orbs could be enhanced by other memory orbs to increase the quality by 1% which would allow a Memory Orb at 20% quality to reduce the penalty by a maximum of 40%.

This would remove items from the market, introduce a new currency, while allowing the trade to be enhanced while not having to adjust the drop rates. You could grant memory shards based on the item rarity broken down:

Unique: 3 shards
Rare: 2 shards
Magical: 1 shards

Maybe certain items that are really powerful could be identified by GGG and the new vendor could offer trades through the market to players with an offer of more shards. This secondary method of offering the shards would give GGG more control and influence or what items are on the market because of a large number of players to avoid some portion of the death penalty.

Whether you agree with this poster's specific suggestion or not, the gist here is correct.

Most of us agree that currency sinks are a good thing for the game, since they help mediate inflation.

The devaluation of items that you fear will happen when trade becomes easy is an exactly analogous inflation. Incorporating a better item sink, similar to currency sinks, by giving greater returns for vendoring items with certain mods as well as (of course) uniques, will have a similar effect.

And you need not create new assets for this to happen. Just give a guaranteed alch for every unique that is vendored. Or chaos, if you prefer (chaoses are not that hard to get). The actual value is negotiable. The issue is that unique vendor values (for example) are so ridiculously low that uniques are often left on the ground!!! So of course any unique that might pull in a chaos is going to go straight onto the market, making it super-easy to acquire.

GGG...



What took you so long?

And on that note, when will we have trade functionality in-game to do away with the PMs back and forth? A simple trade UI element with PM functionality and trading (not automated) that works across multiple leagues would solve the trade nightmare once and for all now that you have this first piece to the puzzle.

Glad you guys think a lot about what is best for the game and not just blindly implement what people cry out for.
It's important to think about the game and the ecosystem as a whole and not satisfy only the needs of a particular group of players.

Thank you for the manifesto!

suggestion: would be useful if we could also see the current league of the trader.

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

And on that note, when will we have trade functionality in-game to do away with the PMs back and forth? A simple trade UI element with PM functionality and trading (not automated) that works across multiple leagues would solve the trade nightmare once and for all now that you have this first piece to the puzzle.

This was actually addressed some time ago... It was first brought up shortly after Ascension (Update 2.2.0) came out, and players promptly complained about being unable to trade while in GGG's precious Labyrinth... With them apparently having not thought of that being an issue.

We'd initially been promised a cross-league/instance trade method, but that was quietly shelved, and eventually, the explanation given was that it'd still make trade "too easy" for their tastes.

On an aside, seriously, what's everyone's problem with a non-interactive form of trade? No game systems I'm aware of are TRULY automated. In all of them:

• Sellers are still required to manually select items, and list a price.
  
• Buyers are still have the burden placed on them to go find an item and seek it out.

Literally, the only part GGG arbitrarily has left in is the requirement to narrow it to people actually online, paying attention, not scamming, and willing to drop whatever they're doing to trade, so that the two parties can perform the last couple clicks together.

Before Chris admitted it was just all about arbitrary speed bumps/roadblocks (That are driving players away from the game) he claimed it was all about "fostering player interaction," but who actually does that anymore? For years, all we've done is:

• Buyer copy-pastes a message from poe.xyz.
  
• Seller sends a party invite.
  
• Buyer enters the seller's HO.
  
• Seller sends trade request.
  
• Both parties place each side in, click "accept."
  
• One side or the other OPTIONALLY says something sort like "T4T."

The above must be really enriching to the experience, right? :V

Uh-uh. Nope. Not acceptable.

You're not just operating on "different ends of the spectrum" in terms of consoles and PC -- you are ACTIVELY disadvantaging console players by creating artificial restrictions -- in terms of search parameters which can be employed to look for specific affixes -- which actually make builds VIABLE or FUNCTIONAL.

This is especially true of jewels and jewelry.

There are plenty of builds which don't use threshhold jewels which require really specific stat allocations and affixes on their jewels just to function at the endgame.

This isn't an experiment in "which system is best" -- the end game, and viability in completing it, is the only real metric by which you can measure attainment. If a build isn't viable to complete Shaper, it's incapable of actually experiencing ALL the game's content. And you're essentially ensuring that for an array of builds for which that limitation does not exist on PC.

It represents an entire paradigm shift. You're ACTIVELY allowing PC users to experience more of the content by increasing their access, with far less restriction, to find items they need to complete more builds which can see that content.

That's not acceptable.

I don't care if it's difficult. The API should be uniform, and all of its features should be uniform, across all platforms.

First off, I really appreciate a post on your trading stance. Whether I agree or disagree, it is nice to have an official word so that debates can be constructive.

Even though it won't change your mind ... here are some points that I disagree with as food for thought.

"

Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.
People who are heavily engaged in trade perform fewer item upgrades to achieve their final build. They get there in fewer steps, because they can easily buy items that are close to what they need. Simply put, their character progression is more about trading than it is about getting items from monsters. We believe that it is more fun to slowly and iteratively upgrade a character over time and to have a longer journey to gear a character up. Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level!

Except the issue with this statement is that only the 1st character in a league is in this place. Once I have a single high level character I immediately resort to leveling uniques for all subsequent characters. I fail to see how this progression exists for 2nd, 3rd, etc. characters in a league.

"

The significant differences in character power and player progression caused by trade has already created a situation where Path of Exile is very hard for some players and quite easy for others. Some people never stand a chance of seeing some of the Atlas of Worlds content, while others can rather quickly defeat it and are looking for new challenges. We're tentatively okay with the degree to which this occurs currently, but it would be much worse if trading were made substantially easier.

I see what you are saying. But isn't this completely contrary to poe.trade and the site you just put out for beta? I mean if I want something and can afford it - I will still be able to get it. I think the majority of the backlash you get from the community on trading is around how incredibly frustrating interactions can be between players. If I need the item I am still going to power past that - albeit more disgruntled than before.

"

Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation
Another topic is automation. While we work hard to stamp out bots and abusive behaviour, it would be hard to completely eliminate the damage caused by a few trade bots with access to a fast trade system. If they have the ability to search out and buy items without having to talk to another player, then there would be some very large-scale economic consequences that would not be good for regular players.

Not going to argue with you on this one. This would totally happen. Some people relish in making currency and that is apparent in all games (this one included as seen by flippers).

The only way to ever combat this is to go the route that WoW did so long ago and lock key items from trade and provide an acceptable gear progression. They also made currency easy to obtain for those who were willing to put in the time. I don't really think either of these are in your vision for this game, so I'll leave it at that.

"

So that's where we are today. It's easy to list items for trade, easy to search for items, and is often quite frustrating to complete a trade. This remaining frustration is the only thing standing in the way of trades being basically instant. While we understand that this sounds like a positive thing, we are very concerned regarding what will happen if that does eventuate. We have to prioritise the long-term health of Path of Exile.

I can respect your concerns. Only thing I will add here is that all you are really doing is purposely avoiding resolution to an annoying part of your game. Again, if I want the item I will get it. 15 ignores and buying an overpriced item later ... I will still get it. I'll just be saltier after the exchange.

"

The Role of Solo Self-Found Mode

I think this is the best part of your post and brings up a very interesting point. You are spot on regarding many players using SSF as a challenge. However, I also think there is a sizable potion of players who would love to play SSF and be done with the trading thing altogether - if they had a higher drop rate of items and currency. This would require having basically a never ending void league so it couldn't merge with others. But ultimately allows your vision of gear progression and farming. The difference is that players can realistically equip their characters in a mode like this.

Your game is superior to Grim Dawn in so many aspects. But when I go back to this game between breaks I can't help but feel like this is the one place where you really miss the mark in POE. Trading is such a polarizing thing because so few people can put in the time to equip your characters solo. I'll stop arguing trade forever if you give me a mode where it is no longer necessary.

"

Elendarulianreo wrote:

"

Chris wrote:

"So given that we love trade and feel it is critical to Path of Exile's formula, why is there so much debate around trade in this game? Most of it stems around whether trade should be easy or not."

The ease of trade has absolutely nothing to do with the potential negative consequences of trade. It's simply a mechanism that drives the rate at which those consequences manifest. Consider that the current trade system sucks. Nevertheless, if every player gritted their teeth and rabidly traded, you'd presumably respond by lowering drop rates. This implicitly acknowledges that trade is fundamentally bad for the game, because it circumvents the paradigm of the loot hunt. An auction house might send you over the cliff faster, but it is not the cliff itself; trading is.

So now you're in the ridiculous position of admitting that you've centered the game's design around something fundamentally bad, but you're trying to mitigate those consequences by deliberately making your trade system frustrating to use. How does that make any sense? Why not just admit your design philosophy is flawed and change it?

Another way of looking at it: do you actually want trading to be required for players to progress, or not? If yes, then why punish players with a bad trade system? If no, then why punish players with terrible drop rates?

nah mate, trade adds so much value to the stuff you loot because the amount of stuff that is good for someone among 100,000 people compared to something that is only specifically good for you is vast. Trade adds an extreme amount of value to the loot hunt.

Trade is not the cliff, generating items is the cliff, you want and need items, when you have them then the loot hunt is done and you fall off the cliff. A loot hunt game is an inherently self destructing system, it has a life span just like a story based game, you cant change this fundamental nature.

the trade and drop systems dont punish players, they give the game longevity which gives the players more time to enjoy the game. They are positive things for players, its just that players are not always perceptive enough to appreciate this.

"

Ceratoidei wrote:

"

Mischief67 wrote:

3. Items drop are abysmally bad to the point were I want "gold" (currency, whatever, it's still gold) over items any day. I then buy the items I need / want (because let's get real I won't get them from playing which is really sad) or craft through essences (because rng bad mods are so many).

crafted and dropped and are BIS for the build I've... bought a second kaoms, but dropped enough cards

yeah, look lets be honest here, if a drop is good or bad, thats a comparative view point. One comparison is vs the content, are people beating all the content in ssf leagues? Yes. Ok so we can say that drops are good enough to beat the game. The other comparison is drops compared to other drops, people are looking at the items other people have, looking at their drops and saying my gear is shit compared to what a lot of people are using.

Problem here is people comparing traded for drops, the best items found by 10,000s of players combined, vs the best items they, 1 person, finds. Your drops are 10,000x worse? Not quite, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that they are almost always going to be worse.

The best items you find in ssf are the good items, you cant compare them to trade items. Its a relative situation, you cant say ur drops are shit because they are what they are, the best ones are good and the worst are bad, you cant say the best drops u get are shit in a general theoretical sense because you can only compare them to your drops. You can say the drops you got today or this week are shit compared to drops you got in other weeks, but that is a very different point to "you can only find shit items".

Im actually a little surprised the fundamental, irrefutable logic of the mechanics in hand is beyond peoples ability to grasp.

ps I take ur boots and raise you...



self found shoes :D

not 6x t1 tho... I seen 6x t1 boots up for mirroring... OMG MY DROPS SUCK!!!!! CHRIS WHY U NO FIX!!!!!

"

Azorien wrote:

Reducing drop rate argument is complete nonsense. Where did you pull that one out of?
More difficult trade -> need more item drops. That is true. But implication is one way operation.

come on mate u know that doesnt make sense, its not one way, something like that cant be one way thats impossible, its a relative relationship.

"

Azorien wrote:

Overall - reducing quality of user experience is never a good solution.

but its not really reducing the quality of the user experience, thats a microscopic perspective, its vastly increasing the quality in important areas by throttling the quality by a far smaller amount in a less important area. Its a net huge gain in user experience and hence essentially necessary.

"

Shareware wrote:

somewhat offtopic

"

Chris wrote:

Items Matter.

Do they?

For me it's sad to see most of the items being worthless or at least lost a lot of value over time. beeing fully geared before even hitting lvl 90 and having nothing to go for but lvl which are realy small increases in terms of power/progression feels terrible.

Since the big incerease in drop rates years ago, prices mostly just went down, gearing is realy easy by now, the game lost a lot of long term motivation for me, there are just a couple chase or big ticket items left which is sad (which only seem to hold there value because they have at least some restrictions in how to get them -headhunter/nemesis mod, skyforce high ilvl requierement).
Removing ilvl restriction at a time where maps were way harder to get and sustain was a good decision at that time (in my opinion), that been said currently where maps are rather easy to get and sustain most of the time, restritions or lower drop rates would make items actualy matter getting a t1 item drop which is selling for 1c to a couple exalteds isnt realy fun or exciting. isnt it more fun to find something rare thats actual valuable, even thought it would happen less often than now?

I'm not asking to reduce the overall droprates or anything like that, i just want items to chase for. i'm totaly fine with ppl who doenst want to spend as much time as i do in the game to get their items especialy the build enabling ones. but isnt it also reasonable to give players who want to spend the time something to aim for?

word, a lot of sense in this post.


Only place Im gonna disagree is that I think overall drop rates do need to be reduced for uniques. All unique items should have their drops reduced to about 1/4 of what we have now with power uniques like rats nest, starkonjas, nightmare bascinets, lioneyes bow, shavs, bla blah blah, all the power uniques need their drops reduced to about 1/10 of what they are now, not even joking, 1/10. Were living in an ssf drop rate system atm and the trade economy is getting fucked so quickly in leagues, powercreep is massive, required effort is pathetic. Put back trade drop rates and give the game back its lifespan. All these ppl talking about player retention in leagues, its the gear proliferation thats the problem, 6 link div cards, power uniques worth 1c because of drop rates and prophecies, its fucked. Make items worth something again, sort out the reckless drop rates on op div cards and power uniques.

"

I'll stop arguing trade forever if you give me a mode where it is no longer necessary.

^^^ This. Excellent response!