Trade Manifesto

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Cyzax wrote:

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enol13 wrote:

I just want to be able to buy a map without whispering 50 people. I burn out every league due to this, and never get to complete my atlas.

Use poe.ninja (like poe.trade, only better) and bulk buy maps. Problem solved.

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RonY_Warrior wrote:

I'm playing this game since open beta in 2012.

This manifesto is a huge mistake now. This game need a Trade House for maps and currencies. We don't need an auction house, just a trade interface in which we could buyout maps and currencies.

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Kulze wrote:

Well, when the Trade Manifesto came out I was mildly surprised, though I didn't think much about it. After all, we got a proper API working around the existing system, so what could go wrong? Also we can search via specific Affixes there, right?

Well.. sadly not quite so, the existing system is adding insult to injury.

So let's go through the reasoning on the Manifesto itself, seen from the standpoint of 'now'.

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Chris wrote:

Items Matter. Trade is Important.

Yes... yes I do agree, especially in an hack'n'slash ARPG in 2019 which offers a similar framework as some MMO's. Which makes the following important statements all the more baffling.

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Chris wrote:

Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.

Let's take a closer look, when does the amount of trades fall?

1.) Acquiring an item directly is easier/cheaper then crafting it. This solution is already counter-acted with the behavior by the majority of people. Since crafting is a gamble, the sure-fire way is more comfortable for many.
2.) The acquisition of weak compared to strong items is shifted, hence allowing for people to upgrade less often as viable items for their build become more common.
3.) Changes in the game-mechanics, for instance the introduction of overly strong affixes and crafting options compared to before, with a relative ease of acquisition.

At the moment the biggest issue is Nr. 3, GGG worked actively against the goals in their Trade Manifesto... at the first point presented. And they even did so without even touching any sort of trading system. So this point isn't important anymore by now.

The common player 'used' to a league upgrades a character in the following ways:

Act 1-10: rushing, at most buying leveling uniques. This isn't affected by any trading-mechanics.
White mapping: First actual 'upgrades', maxing res, survivability, taking a bit more damage.
Yellow mapping: Another wave of upgrades, often not even needed, more damage usually, life/ES if you're lacking, res should be maxed already.
Red mapping: Preparation for shaper/uber-elder, upgrading to 'good' items, multi-modding well rolled bases.

Done, that's the whole progression, afterwards it's only min-max, those steps can't be skipped, if you're too weak you need something better, hence you buy something, hence the trading system is used. Making it more convenient only saves the frustration aligned with it in this regard.

Counterargument:

Not implementing a trading-system of some kind actually hurts the number of trades rather then helping them. The frustration felt by players which have to wait several minutes of their precious time to get a reply, often not receiving an item they need while showcased for them, or having to write towards several people to buy some currency is frustrating. This hurts the flow of a healthy economy, decent items are skipped until the last moment as trading is a hassle, upgrades are minimized to the biggest degree to avoid using the existing makeshift system.

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Chris wrote:

Easy trade means reducing drop rates

Just.. Why? I know the concept behind what Chris wants to say, though... aren't we already massively limited with what we're selling?

Stash-Tab limitation. We simply lack the space to hoard tons of items, we already have to vendor the majority, keeping only the most expensive ones.

Also, has anyone here ever thrown away items which are worth 1 exa + without investing anything 'big' into them? Not the majority of people. Most struggle to find/produce items in the 10c range, that's the majority of the player-base. Upgrades above that are rare because the amount of characters able to run the respective content sharply declines.

Counterargument:

If trading shows a need to reduce drop rates, then why doesn't league-progression do the same? Also, why is anything in standard still worth more compared to a league if there is - based on the sheer amount of items dropped over time - a bigger base of items available compared to a league?
These effects come from limited storage-space, automatically balancing demand vs. supply in a visible way. Trading won't change that.

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Chris wrote:

Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great

This one is literally insulting, not simply wrong in itself. It's a slap to the face for both beginners - which probably don't know as to why - as well as veterans.
The disparity of players inside a game is supposed to be based on skill, skill to use each respective system available to their usage. That's the big argument part 1 here.
Part 2 is even more important though: Beginners struggle strongly with the trading-system implemented 'as is'. Understanding the trading-site in itself is a huge feat, knowing which mods you need for your own build is an even bigger feat, and knowing which ones exist another step further. This actually causes the disparity to go THE OTHER WAY AROUND then Chris said. Someone able to use the site is at a major advantage because that person will be the first to find a good deal, get the cheapest price and won't have to interrupt progression for several minutes to even hours figuring out how the darn site works to find the right items one needs.

Counterargument:

This one leads itself ad-absurdum. Implementing a proper trading system would rather lessen the disparity between different players, at the moment it's so convoluted and hard to learn that a beginner will rather stay away from using the system at all. An experienced player on the other hand will easily sell and receive items at a much quicker rate. Price-checking is more precise and finding proper equipment a common task for them.

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Chris wrote:

Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation

The only point I have to agree to! To a degree at least.
Yes: Bots would be harder to handle, that's a clear issue. It would be even easier to make a bot, as those hundreds which trade currency day in and out and already present.

Though... GGG makes it really easy for bots to work. Presenting a whole API based on trading, which sites work with to generate automated messages and showing to exact item? It's a literal gold-mine for someone creating a bot.
It can check if it's the right item in the trade-window, he can check if the amount of currency given is the proper value, he can message people automatically, he can trade autonomously. What else would anyone making a bot want? We already have the worst-case scenario for information flow towards a bot.

Counterargument:

Actually implementing a proper, fully fledged out and intuitive quick option for trading inside the game would alleviate the bot-problem to a degree. At the moment a bot gets the whole meta-data from the API, able to handle it easily. Without this information present the feat of programming one able to handle the trade in-game would be harder.

Further comments regarding Trade which are an issue in the Trade Manifesto by now:

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Chris wrote:

We had seen what happened in other Action RPGs when characters could be upgraded trivially.

That's up to creating a proper framework based on the game-mechanic. If your System is based to reach levels of 95 swiftly, but your progression of items ends at 86 then there's a clear disparity there. That's the main issue regarding trivialization in PoE at the moment.

Also Act 1-10 are trivial, as is reaching yellow maps for any experienced player. Afterward it becomes a little bit of RNG, nothing all too hard to handle though. More trivial would mean PoE finally looses as the last bastion of 'mildly challenging' ARPG's and goes the same way as those others.

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Chris wrote:

It's easy to list items for trade, easy to search for items, and is often quite frustrating to complete a trade. This remaining frustration is the only thing standing in the way of trades being basically instant. While we understand that this sounds like a positive thing, we are very concerned regarding what will happen if that does eventuate. We have to prioritise the long-term health of Path of Exile.

Yes, having PoE existing for a long time, growing and evolving along the way is something probably the majority of the player-base wants to see. Were will the journey take us?

Though as with every journey, the end isn't what's the goal, the way is just as important. Overshadowing the progress with actively littering it with frustration rather then reward is definitely not the way to go. There are many options to implement new solutions similar to those existing ones, better solutions, less frustration solutions. Solutions which also keep bots at bay, solutions which make a Trade-API... useless, putting an end to data-mining. This could all be done, instead 2017 is showing us that we don't need any trade-mechanism implemented to screw up most above-mentioned points. Updates implemented without proper foresight is what have done the same.

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Chris wrote:

The Trade Market

That one is the same half-baked solution compared to PC.

Choose:
Want a functioning system which lists all items, but you don't have any choice to find one specifically, ending up to be more then frustrating as your friend sitting beside you just found this awesome, cheap, powerful ring by pure RNG. While you're stuck with scrolling for 15 minutes and finding only attack rings as a caster.
Or... want to have the ability to find items properly? Or at least... decently? But as a downside you'll have to alt + tab out of your game, handle a convoluted website, know the specific details if the item you want to buy and then hope and pray so the player on the other side answers.

Well... shit... and shit with a hat basically. The hat won't fix the issue that shit is underneath.



So, how could the System be fixed and not ruin the existing goals of GGG then?

Issue 1: Auction houses usually show items from offline-players.

This could be easily fixed, if a player is offline, their offer automatically is removed from the search-list. And unlike at the moment there wouldn't be a way to know it even exists then, actually enticing to look more often into it and upgrading sporadically.. in the hopes a cheaper and better item is present.

Issue 2: Full automation makes it easier for bots.

Only to a degree. If a bot has to search for specific items without a live-search, as well as decide which one is the best offer, then it's harder to make a working one then now. Without the information from the API a bot won't be able to see an item beforehand, making a decision based on picture recognition is fairly hard still, it would lower the amount of actual bots available.


The suggestion for a working auction house would therefore be the following:


A trading-board.

Input choices are everything present at the trade API right now, in steps though to ease the use for newer players and reducing the clutter. As an extra one, the actual Tiers of Pre- and Suffixes could be shown, making a search for specific combinations viable, rather then purely on provided effects.

Then a list of all items for sale, with respective pricing and an easy way to sort by different criteria. Which mod should be the highest, which the second highest. Thresholds for minimum and maximum amounts of mods.

It only shows items from players currently online.

Buying an item is the same system as buying one from an NPC in town, you pick it up, the person selling it gets the currency into an inbox, one they have to take out the full amount before being able to use the trading board again.

Also this could include services: Mirror-service, bossing service (with proper checks), Achievement hunting, aura-/cuse-bot service, pulling a character through Act 1-10 for secondary ones (a first one can't afford it anyway), and so on. This removes the chance to scam people, which is a detriment to the game. People are here so they can clobber mobs, not to have to worry about someone stealing their stuff.

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foreversense wrote:

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