About Learning to Program

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3DNeophyte wrote:

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BearCares wrote:

But sorry long rant, my point is this: [...] Please don't let TERRIBLE TEACHERS put you off from your goal. No body on the forum had a concise answer for me

Don't let forum posters be your teachers. Beginners should grab a good book that both teaches the language they're interested in and teaches the principles of programming. After much hands-on practice (much = year(s)), forums can then be a good source for asking questions, gleaning supplemental info, collaborating on a problem, etc., because you'll have a good foundation to leverage when determining what posts are helpful and which are bullshit and trollish.

This may make me look bad lol. But when I was a kid I used to read college level when I was in grade school. Probably most of you did too. But my point is that I started reading history books to learn about America. And to my astonishment I found out that some of the books in the school library had FAKE NEWS... so to speak... in them. Some of those history books had propaganda and weren't factual wherever it served the author.

After that I stopped trusting books. I'd must rather go to a source that can be peer reviewed virtually in REAL TIME, like the internet. For example, my number one resource for python is the online manual and youtube. I would never go to a book.

I have health issues having to do with my metabolism and stuff. I learned about ketogenic diet to help keep my insulin down... on youtube. From a guy named Dr. Berg primarily but some other doctors as well. In his own dam youtube video. Dr. Berg AND another Dr. warned the viewers taht the PREVIOUS edition of their books had some bad info in them. And that we should ignore this and that in favor of their new up to date youtube information. Just another example of books being baddies.


@erd - As a dude I put the burden of proof on the other guy to show me he's a genius. I'll never just GIVE him that.

@nec - you understand my pain. I'm in Mississippi and I don't have any people as resources in so far as game development is concerned. Which is why polycount pisses me off too. Because a lot of those guys are in California or some other metro city setting where they can just call an uber to the local hipster cafe and get all sorts of conversation going with like minded game dev enthusiasts. SO they don't understand that I'm relying on THEM becasue they are the only uptodate resources I can find at that particular moment.

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I believe you have that pretty much correct.
If I only knew what to do with my buckets now... That'd be great.
Release the old, begin anew.

Thought you were transferring them to one of the sites was it Shovelcut recommended? SmugMug is really good I hear - looks schmick and for proper artists.

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Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IDT3MpSCKI

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Ohhhh right! Matrix. That does come to mind now you linked it - that significant tattoo reveal (love her overacting there in that scene) - but yeah, was not thinking of it at all. Matrix (the first one) was a pretty good movie to me, didn't grab me and speak Divine Truth to me like so many. Was thinking pure Carroll, here. Goes to show the reach of that humble little couple of books.

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Looking forward to synthesis.

- Copper top

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Upon the reeds there danced a gnat
who liked to dine on air
upon the air there flew a bat
whose reedy cries weren't there

If not for air we couldn't breathe aunque,
The sun set path of bountiful splendor.
A terrible waste to die of the funk,
While waltzing le renaissance tender.

Oh the gnat and the bat are perfectly content, you know. Glad you're looking forward to... hangon it's probably launched? I have an RDO today and a PH on Moday still... hm.

Enjoy the python Necromael :)

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BearCares wrote:

This may make me look bad lol. But when I was a kid I used to read college level when I was in grade school. Probably most of you did too.

Nah, didn't start reading until I was 89. Before that I just listened to travelling bards for stories and scried the elements for news.

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BearCares wrote:

@erd - As a dude I put the burden of proof on the other guy to show me he's a genius. I'll never just GIVE him that.

Oh, you think females are different? Interesting. Genius is one thing, easily claimed and quite often backed up, hopefully without putting the poor woman to sleep. Ingenuity? Ah, now you've got a lady intrigued. At least, I assume that's how women think. Who knows!

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BearCares wrote:

@nec - you understand my pain. I'm in Mississippi and I don't have any people as resources in so far as game development is concerned. Which is why polycount pisses me off too. Because a lot of those guys are in California or some other metro city setting where they can just call an uber to the local hipster cafe and get all sorts of conversation going with like minded game dev enthusiasts. SO they don't understand that I'm relying on THEM becasue they are the only uptodate resources I can find at that particular moment.

You could see it that there's more opportunity for you to develop novel ideas as a result of being in the deep South. I know there's an inherent smirk joke in there, because of all the weird, hateful, occult, warped and swamp-stained bucolic decay down there but remove it. Some of that shit's beautiful, too. Southern accents are bloody cool, even if few people are (and that's people all over) and that's that.

oh i thought that you were suggesting that he was a genius - i was only going off of that

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BearCares wrote:

oh i thought that you were suggesting that he was a genius - i was only going off of that

Nah mate. Funny you mention that, as that is right next to something I've just been thinking of while staring at my kettle. Firstly, though -

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erdelyii wrote:

Maybe they were genius level teachers who got you to come up with the answer yourself. Said with a laugh.

We will never know, and it doesn't matter. Onwards.

The dry laugh emphasis was on the genius level bit. Could be intentional for a great teacher to get you to come up with the answer yourself, and could also be really smart people unable to communicate in a teaching way.

It's always fun to do something unintentionally and then claim you meant it - how genius of me! - too.

On this

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If it was an esoteric answer, no wonder people went about it in arcane ways.

That reminds me of the comment the what was he, an Austrian royal said to Mozart his music had too many notes.

If it works, does it matter?

Looks like that ok for functionality, but for ease of reading (which is what you are talking about) and perhaps elegance (something we can all admire no matter how into complexity and flourishes we might be) - you might want to aim to be more of a Hemingway coder than a Heidegger translated to Klingon.

Thanks for illuminating that, 5.8.

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erdelyii wrote:

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Programming is a creative art form based in logic. Every programmer is different and will code differently. It’s the output that matters.

– John Romero

This is simultaneously a great thing, and a terrifying one. Not that I'm advocating cowardice.

I didn't get far programming in college (or much further afterwards — I'm a script kiddie at best), and a big part of the reason was, eventually, they make you code with other people — and seeing someone solve a problem in a way you wouldn't can be really frustrating if you're expected to build upon THEIR solution. As a result, I can kind of empathize with those trying to do the Common Core thing to coding, even if I disagree with it strongly. "If only EVERYONE coded like me, I wouldn't have to learn every style!" Of course that isn't a winning approach, and creates these massive blind spots where easy solutions are missed, but it's the temptation of coding societies, and no doubt particularly pervasive — and malicious — when it comes to teaching new programmers.

@ erdelyii - I'm onto you. Who are you really, IRL? Some kind of author? A screenwriter? Anyway, I just read the last part of what you said. The other post... SORRY I READ THE FORUM IN A MODULAR WAY pfft lol... but yeah maybe I should make a Shotgun Wedding Simulator where you get bonus points for each cousin that you marry and each uncle that you murder!

@scro - the reason I stopped learning in college was well my teacher was a nice guy but he just straight put me to sleep. He was not a good teacher. If I'd had a teacher more suitable for my personality I would probably already be a game programmer because I wouldn't have stopped in college (after like 3 hours I changed my major because I literally couldn't stay awake in that man's class)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is simultaneously a great thing, and a terrifying one. Not that I'm advocating cowardice.

I didn't get far programming in college (or much further afterwards — I'm a script kiddie at best), and a big part of the reason was, eventually, they make you code with other people — and seeing someone solve a problem in a way you wouldn't can be really frustrating if you're expected to build upon THEIR solution. As a result, I can kind of empathize with those trying to do the Common Core thing to coding, even if I disagree with it strongly. "If only EVERYONE coded like me, I wouldn't have to learn every style!" Of course that isn't a winning approach, and creates these massive blind spots where easy solutions are missed, but it's the temptation of coding societies, and no doubt particularly pervasive — and malicious — when it comes to teaching new programmers.

Group projects are always hard in any class, especially post school. Sounds like programming schools are also enamoured with the "people have to work with others and the best way to teach this is to make people do shitty group projects, and make it worth a chunk of the grade/ compulsory". I imagine they don't teach "how to work in groups effectively", either.

That seems like they're pushing a "standard" way so as to make evaluation easier in a classroom setting; evaluation and also group functioning. is that right?

Maybe you could teach yourself?

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BearCares wrote:

@ erdelyii - I'm onto you. Who are you really, IRL? Some kind of author? A screenwriter? Anyway, I just read the last part of what you said.

Tempting as it is to channel Absalom and ask Who are you?,

I'll just say that's quite a compliment. Thank you.

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BearCares wrote:

The other post... SORRY I READ THE FORUM IN A MODULAR WAY pfft lol... but yeah maybe I should make a Shotgun Wedding Simulator where you get bonus points for each cousin that you marry and each uncle that you murder!

Lol, nah. Unless you're wicked good at satire and can give it depth. AND WANT TO. There's enough stereotypes about the South. Possibly easier to sell Shotgun Wedding Simulator as an edgy self-aware satire than rape day (I know there was no effort on the part of the dev who refuses to out himself to do that), but yeah, you're making what you're making, maybe one day include some Spanish moss and blue tick coonhounds. Those are some dogs.

Shotgun Wedding Escape Classy stuff. Huge scope to improve, tho' ...

I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE J.K. ROWLING PLAYS PATH OF EXILE!!

Õ.o

lol

So, about learning to program!

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erdelyii wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is simultaneously a great thing, and a terrifying one. Not that I'm advocating cowardice.

I didn't get far programming in college (or much further afterwards — I'm a script kiddie at best), and a big part of the reason was, eventually, they make you code with other people — and seeing someone solve a problem in a way you wouldn't can be really frustrating if you're expected to build upon THEIR solution. As a result, I can kind of empathize with those trying to do the Common Core thing to coding, even if I disagree with it strongly. "If only EVERYONE coded like me, I wouldn't have to learn every style!" Of course that isn't a winning approach, and creates these massive blind spots where easy solutions are missed, but it's the temptation of coding societies, and no doubt particularly pervasive — and malicious — when it comes to teaching new programmers.

Group projects are always hard in any class, especially post school. Sounds like programming schools are also enamoured with the "people have to work with others and the best way to teach this is to make people do shitty group projects, and make it worth a chunk of the grade/ compulsory". I imagine they don't teach "how to work in groups effectively", either.

That seems like they're pushing a "standard" way so as to make evaluation easier in a classroom setting; evaluation and also group functioning. is that right?

First off, this was about 15 years ago. So I don't know what they're doing now.

At the time I was much more of an asshole than I am now, and far less wiser. The text advocated a rather uniform coding method; I also advocated a uniform coding method at the time, albeit one different from the textbook's — basically, I believed I was always right, and different from me was wrong. The group projects were the professor's idea — I remember distinctly they were presented as individual projects by the text, and resented with a passion their conversion to group work.

Looking back on it, I think the professor was probably in the awkward position of being forced to teach a particular text he disagreed with, and chose to undermine the orthodoxy the text preached by using the group projects to prove how individual coding styles differed, and a large group of programmers simply weren't orthodox. However, that put a lot of the learning out of the textbook and into independent research, which — combined with the group work — made it FAR more work than the credit hours advertised. Maybe a good experience for the hardcore, but I dropped out (with sour grapes), as many did. I remember he was the sort of professor who has a small "cult" of students who think he's amazing, and a larger mass of students who hate the cult and its leader. But maybe being in the "cult" wouldn't have been so bad.

I don't know. It's hard to even trust my memories from back then because I was such an asshole when I formed them. It might have been a crucible, but it might have just been a clusterfuck.