[3.16] g00fy_goober's Ball Lightning Miner Saboteur (Easily clear all content) REVAMPED

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g00fy_goober wrote:

That's because it is not SUPPOSED to work but it does. In one of the topics even some of the GGG guys (mark maybe?) talked about it working. Even if it didn't work though, a crit roll + onslaught is still going to be used. Then you still recover es/life/mana as normal. The only thing you need is to make sure mobs take 10% inc dmg, they have to be ignited. That is why we have an abyss jewel that gives fire dmg to spells (or u can have it on a ring or something). When you do, you can see the effect from the flask work.

That GGG dev talked about it 'being a bug still not fixed', and that was about... a year ago, or so? I think it was sometime after Betrayal launched itself. Quite a long time has passed since then.

But I wasn't talking about the Ignite part; that one may or may not currently work, this is somewhat a gamble, because it's very hard to test.

Much more importantly, none of the recovery mods work. None of them. Also, Onslaught gives nothing for mines, so basically the flask base type here gives us just... 20% movement speed. So, we have 20% movement speed, we have a suffix craft, and an either working or not working 10% more damage. Now, compare that to Bottled Faith, Atziri's or Wise Oak. In most cases, you won't be able to use even 3 unique flasks, and Urn is worse by miles than any of those three, so you will do a lot better (both defensively and offensively) with any of those 3 options instead of Urn.

Also, regarding the fire damage jewels - we use those for Explosives Expert, but it has a totally different wording: 'against Burning Enemies'. For the same reason, the temple glove mod would also work, because it mentions 'burning enemies' and not 'enemies ignited by you'. The difference is the 'you' part, since mines are not 'you'. Ignites were (and it's possible they still are) bugged with their mine interaction, which was mentioned by the GGG employee, but unfortunately they have never really mentioned anything about that again. I've tried catching Mark's attention a couple of times, but to no avail.

But then again, even if those 10% damage do, in fact, work, the recovery part definitely doesn't, it's very easy to test. And considering that Wise Oak and Atziri provide similar or even more damage, while also giving amazing defensive abilities, I don't think there's any reason to use CU for mines nowadays, unless they change something. If the recoveries did work, I would definitely give it a go, it would be a tremendous help in no regen maps, for instance, and make it feel almost like playing ED/Cont in terms of ES recovery.

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LaplaceNoMa wrote:

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g00fy_goober wrote:

That's because it is not SUPPOSED to work but it does. In one of the topics even some of the GGG guys (mark maybe?) talked about it working. Even if it didn't work though, a crit roll + onslaught is still going to be used. Then you still recover es/life/mana as normal. The only thing you need is to make sure mobs take 10% inc dmg, they have to be ignited. That is why we have an abyss jewel that gives fire dmg to spells (or u can have it on a ring or something). When you do, you can see the effect from the flask work.

That GGG dev talked about it 'being a bug still not fixed', and that was about... a year ago, or so? I think it was sometime after Betrayal launched itself. Quite a long time has passed since then.

But I wasn't talking about the Ignite part; that one may or may not currently work, this is somewhat a gamble, because it's very hard to test.

Much more importantly, none of the recovery mods work. None of them. Also, Onslaught gives nothing for mines, so basically the flask base type here gives us just... 20% movement speed. So, we have 20% movement speed, we have a suffix craft, and an either working or not working 10% more damage. Now, compare that to Bottled Faith, Atziri's or Wise Oak. In most cases, you won't be able to use even 3 unique flasks, and Urn is worse by miles than any of those three, so you will do a lot better (both defensively and offensively) with any of those 3 options instead of Urn.

Also, regarding the fire damage jewels - we use those for Explosives Expert, but it has a totally different wording: 'against Burning Enemies'. For the same reason, the temple glove mod would also work, because it mentions 'burning enemies' and not 'enemies ignited by you'. The difference is the 'you' part, since mines are not 'you'. Ignites were (and it's possible they still are) bugged with their mine interaction, which was mentioned by the GGG employee, but unfortunately they have never really mentioned anything about that again. I've tried catching Mark's attention a couple of times, but to no avail.

But then again, even if those 10% damage do, in fact, work, the recovery part definitely doesn't, it's very easy to test. And considering that Wise Oak and Atziri provide similar or even more damage, while also giving amazing defensive abilities, I don't think there's any reason to use CU for mines nowadays, unless they change something. If the recoveries did work, I would definitely give it a go, it would be a tremendous help in no regen maps, for instance, and make it feel almost like playing ED/Cont in terms of ES recovery.

So going to break this down bit by bit as thats how i always handle replies usually.

- Yes it was like a year ago, but no it still has not been fixed, at least not halfway into metamorph league as that is when i did my build and it worked then. I had to self test it because i had the same questions well why would it work if the MINES are doing the damage not me. But in testing it, i noticed it did work.

- As for the ignite part it is pretty simple, because it gives it a green effect. The effect would not happen if it didn't work. The bug is probably that it counts the ignite from you when in reality it shouldn't because it is mines doing the damage, but as long as the green effect is there, so is the damage bonus.

- Yes attack/cast speed does not really do anything for you (cept for flame dash/portal and such).

- Things like bottled faith might be better, but we alrdy use it on the build. We do not use atziri's/wise oak though, so potentially you could switch it out for one of those.

- I'm not 100% positive but in certain no regen maps and such i could swear that i was getting a lot of mana/es sustain and such from the flask, though i could be thinking of a different build.

- As for jewel/fire dmg, i completely understand what the bug is, regardless atm that is how it works, adding fire dmg to ur ball lightning being cast by mines still ignites enemies and gives the flask effect/dmg. As long as it works idk why it wouldn't be used.


All of that aside i guess none of it really matters. I mean cinderswallow gives you 10% more dmg, 80% crit, 20% movespeed, and maybe (idr) recovery stuff. Compared to wise oak/atziri's it gives more dps, so that is what i go with. If you don't want to use it or want to use something else, then go for it lol.

For example in my POB with proper stuff ticked... Cinderswallow gives a 13.8% dps increase along with some movespeed. Atziri's gives 8.6% dmg and wise oak gives 10.7%. So to me I would take 13.8% + 20% movespeed over 10.7% dmg or 8.6% dmg. I would assume so would most people which is why almost everyone running bl mines is using cinderswallow.

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g00fy_goober wrote:

- Yes it was like a year ago, but no it still has not been fixed, at least not halfway into metamorph league as that is when i did my build and it worked then. I had to self test it because i had the same questions well why would it work if the MINES are doing the damage not me. But in testing it, i noticed it did work.

- As for the ignite part it is pretty simple, because it gives it a green effect. The effect would not happen if it didn't work. The bug is probably that it counts the ignite from you when in reality it shouldn't because it is mines doing the damage, but as long as the green effect is there, so is the damage bonus.

- Yes attack/cast speed does not really do anything for you (cept for flame dash/portal and such).

- Things like bottled faith might be better, but we alrdy use it on the build. We do not use atziri's/wise oak though, so potentially you could switch it out for one of those.

- I'm not 100% positive but in certain no regen maps and such i could swear that i was getting a lot of mana/es sustain and such from the flask, though i could be thinking of a different build.

- As for jewel/fire dmg, i completely understand what the bug is, regardless atm that is how it works, adding fire dmg to ur ball lightning being cast by mines still ignites enemies and gives the flask effect/dmg. As long as it works idk why it wouldn't be used.


All of that aside i guess none of it really matters. I mean cinderswallow gives you 10% more dmg, 80% crit, 20% movespeed, and maybe (idr) recovery stuff. Compared to wise oak/atziri's it gives more dps, so that is what i go with. If you don't want to use it or want to use something else, then go for it lol.

For example in my POB with proper stuff ticked... Cinderswallow gives a 13.8% dps increase along with some movespeed. Atziri's gives 8.6% dmg and wise oak gives 10.7%. So to me I would take 13.8% + 20% movespeed over 10.7% dmg or 8.6% dmg. I would assume so would most people which is why almost everyone running bl mines is using cinderswallow.

Regarding recovery mods and no regen maps, I've done a short test recently in another discussion, to demonstrate that they do not work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfOYxPrr5c

As for PoB, I've tried using your PoB in the OP post, and I'm getting +10k hit damage changing Cinderswallow Urn to 15% Wise Oak;

My PoB shows ~11k DPS gain from a 80% Urn to 15% Wise Oak, for example: https://pastebin.com/fgFFAmDZ

But honestly, even if Cinderswallow somehow was ~5-10k more hit damage than Wise Oak, I seriously don't see how a tremendously strong defensive layer (talking about balanced Wise Oak here, obviously) or even at least Atziri's Amethyst base (considering how many of the new league bullshit one-shot damage often ends up being Chaos), would slightly more damage with 0 defensive ability be worth it vs slightly less damage and a good defensive addition? And in this particular case I also can't see how you're getting more damage with CU's 10% than with 15% Pen.

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LaplaceNoMa wrote:

Regarding recovery mods and no regen maps, I've done a short test recently in another discussion, to demonstrate that they do not work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfOYxPrr5c

As for PoB, I've tried using your PoB in the OP post, and I'm getting +10k hit damage changing Cinderswallow Urn to 15% Wise Oak;

My PoB shows ~11k DPS gain from a 80% Urn to 15% Wise Oak, for example: https://pastebin.com/fgFFAmDZ

But honestly, even if Cinderswallow somehow was ~5-10k more hit damage than Wise Oak, I seriously don't see how a tremendously strong defensive layer (talking about balanced Wise Oak here, obviously) or even at least Atziri's Amethyst base (considering how many of the new league bullshit one-shot damage often ends up being Chaos), would slightly more damage with 0 defensive ability be worth it vs slightly less damage and a good defensive addition? And in this particular case I also can't see how you're getting more damage with CU's 10% than with 15% Pen.

My guess is because you are not ticking is enemy ignited so the cinderswallow bonus doesn't show up. Regardless ill leave it as is. If you want to take a dps loss so you can get 35% chaos res then knock yourself out.

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g00fy_goober wrote:

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LaplaceNoMa wrote:

Regarding recovery mods and no regen maps, I've done a short test recently in another discussion, to demonstrate that they do not work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfOYxPrr5c

As for PoB, I've tried using your PoB in the OP post, and I'm getting +10k hit damage changing Cinderswallow Urn to 15% Wise Oak;

My PoB shows ~11k DPS gain from a 80% Urn to 15% Wise Oak, for example: https://pastebin.com/fgFFAmDZ

But honestly, even if Cinderswallow somehow was ~5-10k more hit damage than Wise Oak, I seriously don't see how a tremendously strong defensive layer (talking about balanced Wise Oak here, obviously) or even at least Atziri's Amethyst base (considering how many of the new league bullshit one-shot damage often ends up being Chaos), would slightly more damage with 0 defensive ability be worth it vs slightly less damage and a good defensive addition? And in this particular case I also can't see how you're getting more damage with CU's 10% than with 15% Pen.

My guess is because you are not ticking is enemy ignited so the cinderswallow bonus doesn't show up. Regardless ill leave it as is. If you want to take a dps loss so you can get 35% chaos res then knock yourself out.

I've just loaded your PoB again, updated to the latest version, double-checked that everything is ticked on (including shock/chill by skitterbots, cons ground, charges, ignited/burning, everything), edited CU to 80% and compared to Wise Oak again. This time it wasn't beating it by 10k, but it is still beating it damage-wise. And that's at 0 extra resistance in settings; if we were to put 40 there (which I personally was doing all 3.9 since they've added so much flat resistances to everything in the game that it's pointless to consider all enemies to have baseline res at this point, especially with AL interaction with map mods), the difference becomes bigger.

But even without those extra shennanigans, basic 15% Wise Oak beats a 80% Cinderswallow Urn damage-wise, even when those 80% give you 94->96 effective crit (so the crit is still somewhat useful for you in this case, unlike my situation where I cap at 99.8 without CU).

So on one hand we have a strong defensive option with good damage, relatively cheap, and on the other hand we have 20% movement speed, no defensive mods at all, and a questionable damage mod that may or may not work (since green fire effect still doesn't give a definite proof that it does, in fact, work, but I honestly don't know what would be a good way to test this to be 100% sure), and if it does work, the damage is still lower than even an unbalanced Oak (yes, it's almost nothing, but still, a balanced Oak would also give some tiny amount of damage from the other 2 types of damage you have anywhere on you) even with a build that fully utilizes the 80% crit roll - for 1ex+ and not available early on.

I don't know, I still see no reason to use CU. Seeing it on miners is pretty much like seeing AoF + Atziri's - maybe not as bad, but still, it's clear that people are using it without fully understanding that most of its mods don't work with mines.

I go test this build for Delirium league :) Thank'you

One noob question (never played this skill)....does 1 mine only cast 1 Ball Lightning projectile?

Or is there any multiple projecctile hidden? (Bcs it looks that it casts way more balls per mine in gameplay but cant find multi projectile support)

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LaplaceNoMa wrote:

I've just loaded your PoB again, updated to the latest version, double-checked that everything is ticked on (including shock/chill by skitterbots, cons ground, charges, ignited/burning, everything), edited CU to 80% and compared to Wise Oak again. This time it wasn't beating it by 10k, but it is still beating it damage-wise. And that's at 0 extra resistance in settings; if we were to put 40 there (which I personally was doing all 3.9 since they've added so much flat resistances to everything in the game that it's pointless to consider all enemies to have baseline res at this point, especially with AL interaction with map mods), the difference becomes bigger.

But even without those extra shennanigans, basic 15% Wise Oak beats a 80% Cinderswallow Urn damage-wise, even when those 80% give you 94->96 effective crit (so the crit is still somewhat useful for you in this case, unlike my situation where I cap at 99.8 without CU).

So on one hand we have a strong defensive option with good damage, relatively cheap, and on the other hand we have 20% movement speed, no defensive mods at all, and a questionable damage mod that may or may not work (since green fire effect still doesn't give a definite proof that it does, in fact, work, but I honestly don't know what would be a good way to test this to be 100% sure), and if it does work, the damage is still lower than even an unbalanced Oak (yes, it's almost nothing, but still, a balanced Oak would also give some tiny amount of damage from the other 2 types of damage you have anywhere on you) even with a build that fully utilizes the 80% crit roll - for 1ex+ and not available early on.

I don't know, I still see no reason to use CU. Seeing it on miners is pretty much like seeing AoF + Atziri's - maybe not as bad, but still, it's clear that people are using it without fully understanding that most of its mods don't work with mines.

Not going to argue further about your made up numbers. Clearly the most common sense answer is that ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the people using it on miners are all wrong and you are correct. If you don't want to use it, don't. Now i am done replying further on this instance.

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altazaar88 wrote:

I go test this build for Delirium league :) Thank'you

Hope you like it and it blesses you with many many exalt drops.

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CroDanZ wrote:

One noob question (never played this skill)....does 1 mine only cast 1 Ball Lightning projectile?

Or is there any multiple projecctile hidden? (Bcs it looks that it casts way more balls per mine in gameplay but cant find multi projectile support)

In general 1 mine = 1 BL projectile unless you have something that adds more projectiles. Overall more projectiles do not hit more so increasing projectiles does not really increase your overall damage.

That being said you use minefield with BL meaning you actually throw out 5 mines. You have skitter bots which occasionally set of random mines (without consuming them). This along with mana flask and continually casting and detonating make for a lot of mines/projectiles.

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g00fy_goober wrote:

Not going to argue further about your made up numbers. Clearly the most common sense answer is that ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the people using it on miners are all wrong and you are correct. If you don't want to use it, don't. Now i am done replying further on this instance.

Wow. Instead of admitting you are wrong and fixing the mistake, you call easily-checkable (with your own PoB) facts 'made up numbers', and appeal to something that 'ALL the people are using' (when it's not 'all', and the majority of high level miners who also go CI/LL do not have it). Before it became a meme, the searching for AoF+Atziris also returned several pages of results, you know.

You were presented with clear numbers, showing that even in the best case scenario for the maximum need for crit and the minimum need for penetration, Wise Oak still beats Cinderswallow Urn on damage - and that's in addition to CU's defensive mods not working at all for mines, while Oak's defensive mod is a great additional layer to pretty much any build.

You really should grow up and learn how to admit you are wrong instead of throwing tantrums about 'made up numbers' for something that is so easy to test.

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That being said you use minefield with BL meaning you actually throw out 5 mines. You have skitter bots which occasionally set of random mines (without consuming them). This along with mana flask and continually casting and detonating make for a lot of mines/projectiles.

Thanks for the fast answere....what do you mean "along with mana flask" bcs he only removes curses what I see.

And bcs of the 5 mines...maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like a bad idea to run "Minefield" with the nerf to the throwing speed....wont we stunlock ourself with the aditional 60% less throwing speed with the changes in 3.10?

And maybe 1 more point if u could explain me....I always read something about throwing sequence.

How exactly does this work? So far I know place all 23 mines -> when I can DMG boss I press detonate + flask buffs -> Hold shift and mine button to keep spawning mines. (Or do I have to wait till all mines detonated before I cast new mines?)

Thanks in advance. :)