Calling it now, not long after 4.X PoE will be past its prime

I see it now, after the initial peak after and maybe if they are lucky a couple of good leagues into 4.X and PoE will begin its final decline. It will deliver more of what it already did, more of the same. Interest from the broadest audience will fade, and poe will still keep a solid core audience for years to come but no one will expect that PoE sees any substantial improvement and those who play do it because they like poe for what it already is.

That marks the end of one era in ARPG's, the era of PoE, the successor to the Diablo Era. Who knows what will come, but hopefully it won't be too long before another game picks up the mantle. But it could be years. I for one still believe we have yet to see the true golden egg of ARPG's - though it may come in the form of an ARPG/MMO hybrid. PoE was good, but it lacked severely in many departments. Storytelling, use of technology(coding, graphics potential), polish, invention, social aspect, intelligent use of RNG, world generation, AI, depth from simplicity, pvp, purpose-beyond-hamsterwheel and so many other aspects were all far from optmized in PoE - there is room for a game of a whole different kind to emerge, a game that will fulfill the promises of the past. But as always, nothing is to be taken for granted, we can only hope for good things to come.

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Saying PoE is the best ARPG available is like saying Comcast is the best ISP in your area.

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

Dunno, for me Diablo 2 is the pinnacle of the genre, and PoE is Diablo 2 on crack. Not sure what kind of revolutionary change you want to see to push the genre forward. It's like with WoW, 16 years after release it's still the #1 MMO and that won't change anytime soon.

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

So what more "could be achieved within ARPG's", hmm? What features are to be found in this grand evolution of the genre that PoE has apparently failed to meet?

PoE continues to evolve. The change to gems and sockets is the best example of this, but is likely far from the last. =^[.]^=

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Exile009 wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

So what more "could be achieved within ARPG's", hmm? What features are to be found in this grand evolution of the genre that PoE has apparently failed to meet?

Well thank you for asking.

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Storytelling, use of technology(coding, graphics potential), polish, invention, social aspect, intelligent use of RNG, world generation, AI, depth from simplicity, pvp, purpose-beyond-hamsterwheel and so many other aspects were all far from optmized in PoE

I will expand this one a bit, short version from the thoughts i have at this moment. Where to start.

Let's start with one thought. A game should be fun because of the gameplay, not just because of your dopamine from chasing the gearing/experience threadmill. This cannot be said for PoE or most ARPG's. Compare to games like mobas, first person shooters. The gameplay itself is satisfying enough. ARPG's are hardly tapping into this potential being stuck with just chasing completion of character and not thinking about experiences. PvP and social experiences are major factors here.

Coding speaks for itself - we all know PoE is everything but optimized. Serious lag spikes, desync, etc. The graphics are basic - they aren't bad, but they surely aint nothing special either. Real cinematics are not a thing. Technology has not been utilized fully. AI is a field that will only be expanded in the future and games too can reap this potential.

Storytelling and setting is lacking massively too. Narrative, story are major factors in greatness. Some say it doesn't matter, but a story becomes a symbol under which to unite - it makes the world of a difference. Strong stories build communities bound strongly together, great characters makes you feel a connection to the world.

When it comes to polish, poe always lacked. PoE is a rough draft in many ways, never polished just left like that. It has been their way since forever, they put things, they forget about them and sometimes with luck they revisit it years later. Ignoring everyones posts about improvements completely. They make version 1 and leave it like that for 2-4 years where they should have iterated and improved to complete them, but they are never completed or brought to a quality standard just put in and they think players will make it work that is fine. Not to mention so many systems are not intuitive and are convoluted. Death penalty if also a premier example of the neglect to respect the real experience and thinking "oh that's can work just fine lets leave it" - for some it does but those choices or lack of choices does a lot of damage to the playerbase.

Then there is the social aspect. Oh wow, this is one of the biggest downfalls of PoE. Another thought - The greatest games will lead people into meaningful social experiences. GGG doesn't have a clue what that means. A game needs to take responsibility for leading players into great experiences with each other. We humans are socially bound, even when we claim we are not then we are actually anti social, bound in defiance of it because of experiences. When humans function healthily, we are a pack animal and social interactions drives us and gives us meaning. Some wants to be leaders, some are followers, others don't want to be involved - but we are all formed around the core of sociality.

And that's before considering that building a strong community and following is what will give the most players and thereby the funds to fuel the game. Party experience is neglected, guilds left in a shit state forever. Things that should have been in game properly before launch ever happened, to capitalize on the early waves of players that have left a long time ago and to bind them to the game through enjoyment. And even these party and guild experiences are basic when it comes to the social experiences games can lead players into - you need to enter the field of choices to make meaningful experiences.

The use of RNG in PoE is Basic. For the most part is it raw rng, though over time more intelligent use has crept in but has never truly been embraced. RNG is showed down ur throat here, even important aspects are so rng dependant that average players don't achieve at same rates for basic things and some quit trying because nothing protects the most unlucky. This is typical GGG attitude, looking at the statistics but not taking care for respecting each persons experience or expecting nolife levels in order to brute force the rng.

World Generation is basic. D2 levels. Here might be a use for AI in the future for example. Have you ever heard about television that if you don't have enough pixel per area then humans can clearly see it is not a real picture, but when there are enough pixels suddenly it feels very believeable. World generation is the same, if you have enough variations in enough ways eventually it starts looking like a real random world rather than a "oh i got this layout and this time on x position it spawned a y, but i love it more when it spawns a Z there".


When it comes to invention the best thing they ever did was flask implementation in PoE and not topped since. So many things could be made. One could dream of a a living world, changing, growing, adapting. Night/day circles with creatures and events. Crafting ingredients, from monsters and world --> believeable magical power from the world setting. Possibbly some form of Morality or good vs evil factions. The world feels so flat in PoE, there is not much depth to it nearly everything boils down to xp and drops per time.

Balance. Oh my god, balance. There is too much power in choices, there are too many choices, there is too much disparity between min, mean and max values. All this ends up in a situation that is impossible to balance when you have to make content threatening to all types of builds. In endgame there is so little stability because of all the ways the game allows you to scale various aspects too much, and that leads to a difficulty making meaningful content for the average player. It leads also to elite pulling far far far ahead of mr average, and mr average feeling worthless and wanna leave.


And i will end up just mentioning simplicity vs complexity. Honestly, the greatest games and things in life are comprised of simple elements. D2 was also a very simple game. The greatest art is making depth arise from simple elements. This is not a path PoE went, they went the full quantity over quality way(not that they don't care for quality). Like music, you add more sounds and just makes the music worse. It's all about the simple distillation of well balanced elements.

And so on and so forth. Look, you can call me a dreamer and rightly so - but i do see how much potential there is untapped. And every new day i would write this with different details because i am constantly infused with thoughts about how things can be done better. This is a super light version of my thoughts on the topic, and not going into my more advanced ideas and visions for the future of gaming. I truly dream oneday to be able to work on bringing some of my thoughts into life, working on games. Even if a person disliked every single thing i said here, i guarantee you that if i was in that person's shoes i would be able to write a gigantic list from their point too. It is all about whether you are willing to see and dream, or not.

There is indisputably soo much that could be improved, and so many neglected problems with PoE and things they just refused to learn or adapt to, aspects they are not capable of handling for example the technical, overall design philosophy etc. It's just stuff being throw in there nowadays in the name of keeping player numbers, not distilling, perfecting what they have and polishing. PoE is a messy game nowadays, and you can't build a tower on an unstable foundation. PoE's core strength has become the thing which ensures it won't reach the greatest heights - quantity, and thereby it has sealed its own fate.

Don't get me wrong, i have a lot of love for PoE still, and will return for many leagues to come. I just realize you cannot be afraid to offend if you wish to advance the truth.

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Exile009 wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

So what more "could be achieved within ARPG's", hmm? What features are to be found in this grand evolution of the genre that PoE has apparently failed to meet?

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2778543

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Exile009 wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

According to your timeline, the decline would happen approximately 10 years after release. Not bad for a "severely lacking" game.

Not bad at all, i have had many good times in PoE. But i stand by what i said, poe is nowhere close to what could be achieved within ARPG's. And let's face it, there have been 0 other attempts at a serious ARPG to compete with PoE during it's reign.

So what more "could be achieved within ARPG's", hmm? What features are to be found in this grand evolution of the genre that PoE has apparently failed to meet?

Telegraphing, customization which is different than optimization, every time someone asks "how did I die" is a major failing.

Honestly though this is the kind of question you ask when you've never tried to innovate. Because the answer is nobody knows until someone comes up with and if someone did, then they'd do it.