Streamer priority confirmed. PoE is free to play, so play it for free, but Boycott GGG.

Even if GGG does not give explicit privileges to streamers, the current mtx community polls also reminds us that streamers basically control any community-driven event that GGG may run from here on out.

I am not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, it feels instinctively wrong to me. On the other, I couldn't rationalise against myself why streamers shouldn't be allowed to rally their followers to drive community decisions according to their preferences.

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Jerle wrote:

Even if GGG does not give explicit privileges to streamers, the current mtx community polls also reminds us that streamers basically control any community-driven event that GGG may run from here on out.

I am not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, it feels instinctively wrong to me. On the other, I couldn't rationalise against myself why streamers shouldn't be allowed to rally their followers to drive community decisions according to their preferences.

This is an interesting conundrum. For a start though, that 'even if' is moot; they did and they do. That's just good business, provided it doesn't rile up enough small-time supporters to make a difference (as apparently it didn't).

So it is wrong, yes. And I'll tell you exactly why:

'Community-driven event that GGG may run' is a ridiculous concept, because 'driven' and 'run' are virtually synonymous in context. Either the community is driving/running the event (e.g. private leagues, streamer-organised races, charity drives) OR GGG are driving/running the event (e.g. flashback leagues, race seasons, survey-based item/mtx design). If you, as a company, are running community events that are overwhelmingly influenced and controlled by a few factions of players or, worse, individuals with sufficient clout, you have fucked up. The veneer of the democracy has become too thin to ignore and your supposed target, any given player, won't bother participating. What should have been an inclusive event has become an exclusive one. Participation gives way to observation. I suppose for a game so reliant on people watching other people play it, that makes sense.

So a community event facilitated or organised by GGG? That makes a little more sense. But 'run'? What that word does (and it's really important that it's the one you chose, because it's the correct one for what's happened here) is clarify how weak GGG's position has become in terms of streamer influence. But this is nothing new: there are sacred cows in the game the slaughter of which would drive a significant number of players away. 'The player is the boss' was one of the most subtly horrifying things Chris has ever said. It appeals on a surface level, but once you realise 'the player' is in fact NOT any given player but instead a certain type of player, what sounds like happy democracy starts to look a lot more like oligarchy. It's not even a meritocracy: some of the absolute best players of the game were virtually unknown until they also became streamers.

For what it's worth, I don't think the mtx thing was entirely dominated by streamer influence; I don't believe GGG has reached the point of, say, K-pop stanning where skewing the voting process is a declaration of devotion. The result didn't surprise me at all.

edit: I just checked. Okay, well...shit. I thought currency had it in the bag. I'm not interested in witch-hunts or finger-pointing but you and a few others dropped a streamer's name. Even if there's proof that's what happened, it's perfectly legitimate, as you said. No reason not to allow that.

...The problem lies with letting it get this far. I mean, if players are fine with streamer access privilege on launch day, then shit, streamer-dictated community voting events is small fucking potatoes in comparison. See what I mean when I say how important it is that someone, anyone, points out the danger of getting complacent with these little 'transgressions'? They erode the community's ability to resist future examples of unfairness, ESPECIALLY when those future examples aren't quite as 'bad' as what happened.

In other words, events such as the streamer priority queue raised the bar for what's acceptable in terms of GGG kow-towing to streamers and treating its average players like shit so high, that anything under it is a hand-wave of 'whatever, at least it wasn't that'. It's like punching someone once a day, just once, no explanation or reason. It won't take long before a slap or a mere shove would seem like a mercy, like a gift, or at the very least like an improvement.

This distortion of 'normal' is classic abusive behaviour.

And that's why you feel it's wrong, Jerle. Because it would seem a lot more wrong to others if they hadn't already accepted it as normal, if they weren't already so invested that they can come up with their own explanations for why things are the way they are.

I am not against community-driven events. I'm not against company-driven events with community input. I think these things are a great idea. But I am 100% against their usage to bolster an already compromised relationship, to reinforce an illusion of agency in the Average Player.

Because from that angle, a company-driven event (i.e. vote on your new mtx!) with community input (i.e. streamer input) looks a lot less like fun and a little more like propaganda, with the agenda being: hey look, Average Player, we're still listening to you! We still care what you think!

And the really sad part is I don't think Average Player even cares if that's true or not anymore. They don't care that when the game is inaccessible to them, it's accessible to certain faux-celebrities, their girlfriends, their cronies, their pets...as long as the game works for them (most of the time). I don't blame them for this: I feel the same way about most other things. But only because I'm fairly sure there's always someone who cares a little more and is saying what they feel needs to be said when something beyond the player's experience goes awry and the consequences of that aren't immediately apparent. That someone is usually a big supporter (investment, after all), a long-time participant who was there 'from the start', give or take. Who has tried, time and again, to justify to themselves why these changes were inevitable, why they're good for the company, the community...but eventually has to face reality that it's not good at all. And then, with sufficient reflection, that person realises the lines between the dots were always leading to this eventuality, and they were too stupid to see it.

For PoE and GGG, that someone could have been no one but me.

And it fucking sucks. It sucks that I now can't unhear Chris saying, 'hey, people like free things, right?' and knowing it was The First Taste, and that 'online-only, mtx driven free to play with regular updates' as a selling point was the early seed of that antithesis of good game design: Game-As-A-Service. It all sounded so great: a living world ARPG driven by ethical microtransactions that represented nothing more than the players' voluntary desire to fund what they love. And maybe because I was a cashed-up Diablo veteran at the time, I didn't realise that this was unsustainable, but I bet Chris did. He had the foresight to know that buy-to-play wasn't sustainable either -- I thought free to play was his expression of uncertainty and a lack of confidence in the product, that it wouldn't sell that many units. But no, it was the opposite: he knew that buy-to-play was on the way out, and that the real money lurks in convincing players they need to keep giving money EVEN WHEN they're not actually buying anything related to enhancing the gameplay experience.

Can you in all honesty look at PoE now and see where all that money goes? $50m USD *a year*. Do you feel like you're playing a game that's worth that much? I'm not saying that money's gone straight to GGG/Tencent's wallet. It doesn't work that way at all. I am saying, however, that I see a significant gap between how much money supporters have put into PoE for the past nine years and the quality of their experience. You would not see this gap with a buy-to-play game: not even the much-maligned buy-to-play ARPG Wolcen, which sold very well and then let pretty much everyone down, has that gap. We paid, at most, $40USD for that game. Virtually nothing in light of your little badge collection, Jerle, or my forsaken trove of relentless accumulation. And yet because it was buy-to-play, people were like 'this was such a waste of my money'. GaaS and drip-feed support systems skew the fuck out of how users perceive their spending. It's fucking insidious.

I knew I would never get my money's worth with PoE, right from that first Diamond purchase. I made the decision there and then I wouldn't be buying the game but instead buying into its creation, its process of growth and existence. That's what I wanted to be a part of, and indeed I was. And so I justify all that spending -- and so any supporter does. $1000 a year? Shit, that's cheap for a hobby/interest that gives you dozens of hours of immersive entertainment a week. $500 a year? That's basically a WoW subscription. $100 overall for some stash tabs? Fucking. Bargain.

But then you add it all up and look at the end product: a game that's worth several hundred million dollars...but plays like one made with a tenth of that budget. A fifth, if we're being very generous.

How in hell is that a 'bargain'? Other than by personal experience, how is that even vaguely justifiable?

And it's all because they started free to play without pay to win, and it continues because the revenue generation shifted from schmucks like me, you, many of my fellow Bird-Lovers and anyone else who believed in that original vision, to the mass wealth generation found in schmoozing streamers and influencers.

That's when things really took off. But let's not forget that PoE had Twitch integration by mid 2013. This was well before streamers 'took over' -- barely a year after Kripp brought the first wave during a few beta weekend. Just one more way in which Chris saw the future. This future. Maybe not quite this compromised but still, it was always heading towards significant streamer presence and influence. Always.

I think part of where it went wrong was the loss of GGG-run race seasons. That was supposed to be the main event, the big leagues as it were, in which Your Favourite Streamer would race against Other Favourite Streamers in a number of short but intense events. Turns out they didn't need that, and for some reason players were perfectly fine watching Their Favourite Streamer just play a full league for weeks on end. Well, easy to drop that waste of resources and time then...but they shouldn't have, because allowing streamers to take over the actual league was like letting Usain Bolt enter your local fun-run. You can still compete but you might as well not. Instead you're just participating, in which case you might as well just stroll.

post-shower edit: actually, there's a flaw with that analogy. Bolt is a sprinter; fun-runs are typically mini-marathons. So maybe that's what happened: GGG anticipated sprinters but got marathon enthusiasts instead, and didn't quite know how to accommodate that given they expected the league to be the 'fun run' to the race season's 'serious competition'...dunno. All I know is they should have found some way to keep the so-called pros and the average player in separate fields, thereby maintaining (or achieving, if we're being absolutely honest) PoE's status as both a 'fun game' and a 'serious e-sport'.

Anyway, that's enough out of me. For now. Suffice to say, the amount of streamer influence over PoE right now IS wrong and you should trust that feeling.

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Anyway, that's enough out of me. For now. Suffice to say, the amount of streamer influence over PoE right now IS wrong and you should trust that feeling.

People tend to copy-paste streamers/meta/tournament games in just about every game. The only time you won't need to is when you know the game well enough, which is something most players don't have time for, knowing all them gritty details and then being creative with em.

Streamers rigged the community designed MTX by brigading it when currency had the lead that Sharknado now has on it. Pretty disgusting, hope everyone who voted for the alternatives dont buy it due to the lack of integrity of others making their fanboys pick what they like over letting the actual community decide.

Yet another thing ruined by streamers, im soo disappointed.



Edit - @forever/jer ~ The reason why it feels bad is because it is bad. This isnt like a competition where you rally your friends, family, etc in order to win at something. This is a community event.

Theres a very big difference between advertising that something is taking place and telling someone what to pick, obviously the second is what happened.

In my opinion thats a complete lack of integrity for something that should bring the community together but instead they decided to split the community apart even further for their own agenda.

This is going to leave a sour taste in everyones mouth because it wasnt about who wins, its about what the community decides on. Instead, streamers decided to turn this into a personal competition because they lack enough integrity and maturity.

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PoE is free to play, so play it for free

Ok so i will keep doing what I've been doling for the past 5 years...ive had it figured out from the start bois

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Do you feel like you're playing a game that's worth that much?

Very easy answer: Yes. Glad we talked about it :)

ggg dont treat their players like shit, thats pathetic hyperbole. in terms of the advantage ggg has given streamers over players by letting them bypass that queue when the servers were doing down it amounts to essentially nothing in the bigger picture, making it out to be such a big deal is beyond absurd.



streamers like ziz and nugi pour a ton of positivity into this community, ziz puts up tons of his own money for events that anyone can go and enter, enjoy. they put out entertaining and informative content to make people happy, that makes the community and the game a better, happier, friendlier, welcoming, inclusive, engaging, mentally healthy place.


whats being achieved here? pouring toxicity and negativity with such ridiculously exaggerated excuses and claims, dividing people, just breeding an awful atmosphere that encourages unhealthy mental states and brings the entire game and community down.


its not streamers influence that people should be rejecting, its bad faith actors whos only intent is harm, disruption and negativity for the sake of negativity.







this joke of do you think ur playing a game worth that much... im playing a game with at least 10x more content added per year than any other game i have ever played or seen, many of which made significantly more money than ggg. a dev team that is second to none in the industry for how much time and effort they endlessly pour into their game and how much they genuinely care.

people char that you used to call friends whos lifes work you now just shit on endlessly for the sake of it, you dont even play the game, you just come here to try and hurt these devs, thats your goal, your noble quest.

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Vennto wrote:

"

Do you feel like you're playing a game that's worth that much?

Very easy answer: Yes. Glad we talked about it :)

But we didn't; [Removed by Support]. Do you really feel like you're playing a game worth that much? Look past your enjoyment of it, and try to be objective. Do you seriously look at Path of Exile, as it is now, and see a game that cost a conservative 25 USD million to make? Does it have anywhere near that sort of polish? (and this is also why we 'didn't' talk about it; I was being hypothetical)

Of course, the disparity between 'how much it costs to make a game' and 'how much a game makes' is almost pointless an argument when it comes to games: I can name some fairly budget mobile gacha games that make a billion USD a year. So that has to be taken into consideration. On the other hand, those games are all made by developers who don't even begin to hide their nefarious financial model. Hell, at least one of them revels in it, knowing its playerbase takes a perverse sort of pride in its 'whaling'...

But PoE isn't one of those games. It's not meant to look far worse than its budget or its revenue. At least, that wasn't the initial premise or agreement. Go take a gander at those 'boss' screenshots the Community Team shared. They look awful. Just simply awful. They're exactly what you'd expect from an indie game ten years ago. And that's just one small example.

As I said: we all found ways of justifying our contributions, or lack thereof (no names mentioned there). And that's fine. But when you step back and consider how much money has gone into this game, it simply doesn't reflect it. And that's...not good.

But it doesn't have to, because it's designed to be addictive and 'played forever'. [Removed by Support]

Again: we didn't 'talk' but I appreciate your contribution. Have fun, Exile.

You really are sad because GGG let entered like 20/30 people before you in the game ? like really ???

Is that something that matter during a launch day ? When most of Streamers are playing HC SSF ?

I know you didnt appreciate the privilege, but when there is thousands of player who wants to enter the game, giving privelege to 20/30 people is just negligible ...

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Spoiler

ggg dont treat their players like shit, thats pathetic hyperbole. in terms of the advantage ggg has given streamers over players by letting them bypass that queue when the servers were doing down it amounts to essentially nothing in the bigger picture, making it out to be such a big deal is beyond absurd.



streamers like ziz and nugi pour a ton of positivity into this community, ziz puts up tons of his own money for events that anyone can go and enter, enjoy. they put out entertaining and informative content to make people happy, that makes the community and the game a better, happier, friendlier, welcoming, inclusive, engaging, mentally healthy place.


whats being achieved here? pouring toxicity and negativity with such ridiculously exaggerated excuses and claims, dividing people, just breeding an awful atmosphere that encourages unhealthy mental states and brings the entire game and community down.


its not streamers influence that people should be rejecting, its bad faith actors whos only intent is harm, disruption and negativity for the sake of negativity.







this joke of do you think ur playing a game worth that much... im playing a game with at least 10x more content added per year than any other game i have ever played or seen, many of which made significantly more money than ggg. a dev team that is second to none in the industry for how much time and effort they endlessly pour into their game and how much they genuinely care.

people char that you used to call friends whos lifes work you now just shit on endlessly for the sake of it, you dont even play the game, you just come here to try and hurt these devs, thats your goal, your noble quest.

Actually, the way that TencentGGG treat their players is at times worse than abysmal. Some time ago they started to see them as juicy resources that are capable of only "supporting" and "playing PoE THE RIGHT WAY"...

As a matter of principle, letting streamers (and their friends, family, dog, cat etc., etc.) bypass the queue was a letdown of epic proportions, but no one should have been surprised by their reasoning, attempt at a "pathetic" apology and future course of actions... "The writing on the walls" was there since a long time ago...

You're talking about the economy that actively encourages scamming, facilitated by the almighty TencentGGG overlords (just look at their damn "rework" of Harvest, missing the problem of "community pooling resources" entirely, and just making the damn TRADE FOR SPECIFIC CRAFTS MANDATORY), that supports also toxic "content creators" - remember Empy? - and manages "great interaction" highlighted by daily Reddit and forum threads...

I'm also with you that there are streamers that do their best to better the game and community, but TencentGGG forgot that they should also "curate", from time to time at least, their "public faces" - but "there is no BAD publicity", am I right?

What's being achieved here?

Simply the dismantling of the "TencentGGG are etic, and they must be supported for that"...

The previous amassed playerbase goodwill is hard to gain, and easy to lose with such debacles - well, for the players that are not addicted to the point of no return, at least - and TencentGGG simply "reap what they sow"...

The current "swing" at the "community" MTX poll places as much focus on rejecting the "toxic" streamers influence, just as they also should put on those "bad actors whos only intent is harm, disruption and negativity for the sake of negativity"...

I didn't see the last ones as preponderant as their previous conterparts, even in this thread.

You might not agree with the views, but that is your right. Our opposing right is to respectful disagree, and keep other players vigilant about the "shortcomings of TencentGGG ethicality" so they make their informed decision regarding "support"...

TencentGGG are working on improving things as good as they can, and no one here wants them to "fail" in their endeavors, far from it, but they also shouldn't have gotten so many passes at "bad decisions", so much "support" for their outright "patronizing attitude" and "condescending explanations", and most of all, they should remember that their players are still here to have FUN, and their backing remains centered on that aspect...

No one came here to "hurt the devs", and you give too much credit to this actions impact, but someone should have come and highlighted, once and for all, that THE GGG WE ALL "OLD SCHOOL PLAYERS" KNEW AND SUPPORTED IS LONG GONE, and the TencentGGG husk that remained keeps it's focus on more "profitable" matters than the "ethically MTX transactions" taunted since the games inception...

And I couldn't have think of a better voice than the one of the once RULER...