Streamer priority confirmed. PoE is free to play, so play it for free, but Boycott GGG.

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Omnicide24 wrote:

The whales are not just people with money to blow but also people who don't prioritize their money in a healthy way. Among the high spenders the ones who spend a higher percentage of their relative income are probably more likely to stay out of a need to justify their sunk cost I'm guessing. You can't just whale all kinds of different games if that whaling actually hurts.

This assertion makes no sense to me?! If what you're trying to say is that no one could possibly have enough net worth to make giving tens of thousands of dollars to a game developer a reasonable decision, I'd just like to say that someone paid Jeff Bezos 28 million dollars for a ride to space.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Omnicide24 wrote:

The whales are not just people with money to blow but also people who don't prioritize their money in a healthy way. Among the high spenders the ones who spend a higher percentage of their relative income are probably more likely to stay out of a need to justify their sunk cost I'm guessing. You can't just whale all kinds of different games if that whaling actually hurts.

This assertion makes no sense to me?! If what you're trying to say is that no one could possibly have enough net worth to make giving tens of thousands of dollars to a game developer a reasonable decision, I'd just like to say that someone paid Jeff Bezos 28 million dollars for a ride to space.

I didn't assert what you think, I'm talking about how there are also whales who don't have a large amount of money but still spend way too much on games.

Believe it or not Chris and I discussed that topic quite a bit. As I said we both know people who are...irresponsible with their money. How could we not? He's big into Magic, I'm big into online gaming.

But I do think most whales can afford to whale. Certainly most of the PoE whales I've known were basically just throwing some cash at something they loved and wanted to support. That said PoE whales are a different breed. We did not buy power, at least not overtly, and so the simpler connection between whaling a f2p game and some sort of rush of adrenaline from getting a super rare gacha item or just straight up massacring others isn't a factor. There was, like or not, an element of philanthropy to being a PoE whale. That has its own reward, its own rush. But it's not the sort that attracts people who spend beyond their means.

And that was and I hope is important to Chris. While he has created a horrifically addictive game, to which casino comparisons are more than warranted, the currency of it is not money but time. And time is a much fairer resource to ask of players...technically.

So I disagree that PoE whales are spending beyond their means. Or people supporting it in general. This just isn't that sort of addiction. Doesn't meant it's not seriously frivolous but frivolity is key to entertainment and pleasure. I believe I was one of the game's biggest whales and I know one of the others near my level and neither of us were ever left without a roof over our heads, bills unpaid or meals skipped. That isn't a brag of wealth but an indication that it's all just a game of scale and sustainability. I didn't stop supporting PoE because I can't. I stopped because it was no longer giving me joy.

And part of that loss of joy was the stark awareness that no matter how much I put in, it wasn't worth anything to GGG compared to what streamers were pulling in on the regular. There is philanthropy and charity, but those are often the shiny side of a very dirty, very selfish coin. Elsewise why would people donate to get their name on a building? Or...on a wooden noticeboard...

Or "support" to get their sword into a game?

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I just read an absolutely excellent article, a Long Read about games, GGG's owner and their country of origin on the Guardian, to which I shall not link due to CoC but if you are interested (and I think every gamer should be) search for "no ghouls guardian". Should be easily located. I am not encouraging any discussion of said article here. But I think it relates to the larger issue of devs having to dance through ethical battlefields if they want those "truckloads of money".

Apologies if I didn't reply directly. My thumbs are about done trying to form words for now.

Have a lovely weekend. Back to Titan Quest for me...or maybe No Man's Sky: Animal Crossing edition...

Yeah that article hurts my head. I'll just say it's hilarious that anyone will cow tow to all the censorship values with one hand while pushing the envelope really hard against what they consider "family values" with the other hand. Not really speaking about any one company in particular but like you say this isn't the place to discuss that further I guess.

Back to the whale discussion, I read an article some years back that interviewed someone who is exactly like the type of whale I guess I'm trying to illustrate. Low to middle income with a mortgage etc etc who blows all his money on mobile games. I think if they exist at all it would be silly to underestimate how many exist. It gets compared to real gambling for a reason, regardless of whether there are irl benefits at stake when you gamble, the system itself attracts and addicts people who harm themselves in the process.

Collectibles should not be underestimated in this area as well, I don't consider PoE to be P2W in any meaningful way. There are people who feel like they must have all the shinies though, how many people own every mtx that has been released in the game and what percentage of that population do you think the cost of owning them all was a healthy expenditure?

I'm not assigning any blame to the business really, I believe people are responsible for themselves. It's still a little tragic at the same time to see so many people who apparently lack the tools in their heads to make better choices.

Anyway, establishing that there are at least 2 vastly different types of people spending excessive amounts of money on the game, I am supposing that what these two types enjoy and want from the game may be wildly different. People who have invested a lot into the game probably feel a different level of attachment to it based on what percentage of their income they have spent. People seem to need to justify large purchases to themselves. Buyers remorse triggers cognitive dissonance.

@Charan that was a great guardian article. I was surprised that GGG did not get a mention.

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Omnicide24 wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Omnicide24 wrote:

The whales are not just people with money to blow but also people who don't prioritize their money in a healthy way. Among the high spenders the ones who spend a higher percentage of their relative income are probably more likely to stay out of a need to justify their sunk cost I'm guessing. You can't just whale all kinds of different games if that whaling actually hurts.

This assertion makes no sense to me?! If what you're trying to say is that no one could possibly have enough net worth to make giving tens of thousands of dollars to a game developer a reasonable decision, I'd just like to say that someone paid Jeff Bezos 28 million dollars for a ride to space.

I didn't assert what you think, I'm talking about how there are also whales who don't have a large amount of money but still spend way too much on games.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

Glad you guys gave it a look. There are bigger things happening but I will leave it to you to dig them up. Or don't. Nothing is certain yet. Google translate will come in handy.

Re buyer's remorse: it's a short term concept, usually following an impulse. I think I talked about this elsewhere on here but it was mostly to reinforce that whales typically don't have buyer's remorse in the typical sense that follows the purchase of, say, an overly expensive car or item of clothing. It takes us much longer to face the reality that what we paid for and what we got aren't 100% aligned. But that's down the track, and totally within expectations given the vicissitudes of game development.

Again, it is different when you arent aren't up buying power or gambling for it.

even if you buy top tier supporter pack its not that much money compared to other hobbies, the money i spend on poe is barely peanuts to what i spend going to clubs

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Aetherium wrote:

even if you buy top tier supporter pack its not that much money compared to other hobbies, the money i spend on poe is barely peanuts to what i spend going to clubs

Sure
But getting your own unique and divination card is way more than supporter packs and you know it

For some it actually is a lot of money though.

If buyers remorse is too narrow in it's definitions I'd like to expand on that. People tend to resist admitting they made a mistake, even to themselves. Reconciling your belief with reality can be difficult for humans it seems. If you spent a lot of money on a game (relative to your income of course) out of love for the game and a want to enjoy it fully... If you thought it was safe to collect all the things in a game that cost money because you assumed it was a safe investment in your enjoyment, and then that game starts becoming something you don't like...

Well you'll find the answer is different for everyone, but many would likely tell themselves a more favorable story than that it was a waste of money and time to move on since you don't really enjoy it anymore.

The type of player to put a larger percentage of their relative income into the game, and no longer enjoy the game, but not be able to admit that to themselves, well, it's obviously not representative of you guys or everyone but I would argue that the percentage of them in the player base is not zero.

I'm not sure if I had a point here anymore, but that's as clear as I can make what I was saying. Basically not all who spend do so comfortably, and those who are uncomfortable with their spending are likely to try and justify it to themselves rather than face the reality.