We need an executive order to remove the experience point penalty for dying

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bobmiller123#3852 wrote:

VETOED.



This game isn't for casuals.

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Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

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bobmiller123#3852 wrote:

VETOED.



This game isn't for casuals.

Hate to break it to you, but it is. There is hardly any skill involved here. It's a brain-off cookie clicker that primarily rewards sheer time investment.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but please, let's not act like any of this requires skill.

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Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

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Clumpinator#4756 wrote:

That is an extremely stupid idea. The XP loss upon death is not significant, and it needs to exist in order to provide incentive to play carefully, strategically, and overall pay attention to the combat and mechanics. If we didn't lose XP, then people would just repeatedly and purposefully die to content that is too powerful for their character in order to power-level without any risk. This would make absolutely no sense for character progression or creating any sort of feeling of authentic power scaling where your hard work and intelligent build decisions pay off. The entire point of this game is to create a successful build through smart decision making, crafting, and trading. If there is no penalty for death, then there is no meaning to progression. There is a reason every ARPG in existence is like this. PoE has never been a sandbox game, nor should it ever be. If you are finding an area too difficult for your character and your XP gain has grown stagnant, it's because there are elements of your build that are lacking and need to be improved upon in safer zones. Game design that facilitates repeatedly nuking yourself for meta XP gain is not game design at all. It's stupid, and that's exactly what zero/reduced death penalty would encourage players to do, because everyone will take advantage of the quickest, simplest route to leveling possible, with as little brain usage as is needed. That kind of gameplay would ultimately be destructive, and would not leave players feeling fulfilled or with any sense of accomplishment, and would make the entire purpose of the game redundant.

Your arguments are not logical. If it is insignificant then it also doesn't incentivize anything. What is it? is it insignificant or a meaningful incentive. It can't be both.
Additionally, the incentive of playing carefully and stratigically is already acomplished by the one death per map mechanic. There is no point to the xp loss on top of it.
The whole rest of the argument is faulty too. You can't die your way to power - waystone aquisition limitations wouldn't allow for it, you can't sustain t15/t16 if you die halfway into every second or third map. The xp loss doesn't incentivize clever builds - people still play the zoom zoom glass cannons almost exclusively, they just avoid engaging with overly risky content that would lead to xp loss.
Additionally the level setback is negligable the further you progress. On lvl 94 you gain 2% xp per t16 map. Meaning that a total of 50 deaths the prior 10 lvls has set you back one level in total. On 99 it's 1% per t16 stone. So you could have accumulated a hundred deaths from say lvl 85 to 99 and still not being set back one total level in progression.

However, each of those 100 deaths with the 10% xp loss on top of it feels just horrible and serves no purpose but waste your time. At 400 hours played you will probably be like lvl 96, 97. Do we really need a mechanic to gatekeep players progress with the sole purpose of wasting their time because their progession is "too fast" and "not meaningful enough"?

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

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Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

"

bobmiller123#3852 wrote:

VETOED.



This game isn't for casuals.

Hate to break it to you, but it is. There is hardly any skill involved here. It's a brain-off cookie clicker that primarily rewards sheer time investment.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but please, let's not act like any of this requires skill.

Actually if you do not follow any streamer build it requires quite alot of skill.

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Clumpinator#4756 wrote:

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Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

"

Clumpinator#4756 wrote:

That is an extremely stupid idea. The XP loss upon death is not significant, and it needs to exist in order to provide incentive to play carefully, strategically, and overall pay attention to the combat and mechanics. If we didn't lose XP, then people would just repeatedly and purposefully die to content that is too powerful for their character in order to power-level without any risk. This would make absolutely no sense for character progression or creating any sort of feeling of authentic power scaling where your hard work and intelligent build decisions pay off. The entire point of this game is to create a successful build through smart decision making, crafting, and trading. If there is no penalty for death, then there is no meaning to progression. There is a reason every ARPG in existence is like this. PoE has never been a sandbox game, nor should it ever be. If you are finding an area too difficult for your character and your XP gain has grown stagnant, it's because there are elements of your build that are lacking and need to be improved upon in safer zones. Game design that facilitates repeatedly nuking yourself for meta XP gain is not game design at all. It's stupid, and that's exactly what zero/reduced death penalty would encourage players to do, because everyone will take advantage of the quickest, simplest route to leveling possible, with as little brain usage as is needed. That kind of gameplay would ultimately be destructive, and would not leave players feeling fulfilled or with any sense of accomplishment, and would make the entire purpose of the game redundant.

Your arguments are not logical. If it is insignificant then it also doesn't incentivize anything. What is it? is it insignificant or a meaningful incentive. It can't be both.
Additionally, the incentive of playing carefully and stratigically is already acomplished by the one death per map mechanic. There is no point to the xp loss on top of it.
The whole rest of the argument is faulty too. You can't die your way to power - waystone aquisition limitations wouldn't allow for it, you can't sustain t15/t16 if you die halfway into every second or third map. The xp loss doesn't incentivize clever builds - people still play the zoom zoom glass cannons almost exclusively, they just avoid engaging with overly risky content that would lead to xp loss.
Additionally the level setback is negligable the further you progress. On lvl 94 you gain 2% xp per t16 map. Meaning that a total of 50 deaths the prior 10 lvls has set you back one level in total. On 99 it's 1% per t16 stone. So you could have accumulated a hundred deaths from say lvl 85 to 99 and still not being set back one total level in progression.

However, each of those 100 deaths with the 10% xp loss on top of it feels just horrible and serves no purpose but waste your time. At 400 hours played you will probably be like lvl 96, 97. Do we really need a mechanic to gatekeep players progress with the sole purpose of wasting their time because their progession is "too fast" and "not meaningful enough"?

My argument is perfectly logical. You are supposed to invest intelligent decisions into developing a powerful build that is effective enough for the content you are trying to run. Dying 50 times and getting set back to 0% XP means your build has serious problems. You should never be dying that much. You should not be dying at all. XP penalty is the game telling you to get your act in gear and think about the holes in your build before advancing. It feels good to go into content with risk, because overcoming that risk means that you are powerful and that are playing effectively in accordance with the skillsets you have chosen. Why would you die 100 times to get to level 99? Are you freakin' serious? This is a stupid argument for why there should be no XP loss. XP loss IS extremely insignificant, because YOU SHOULD NOT BE DYING ON REPEAT LOL. Nuking yourself just to get to the next level is so stupid, it's not even worth trying to justify. Incentivizing that just to advance in the game is not good game design. The entire premise of ARPGS is progression, and one of the most important aspects of it is SURVIVAL. Look at hardcore players for example. Look how carefully they play. Look how much strategic thought and investment they put into their characters. That is what GGG intended for gameplay, and that is what is going to stay. If you can't run the content without XP loss, DON'T RUN THE CONTENT UNTIL YOU ARE MORE POWERFUL. It's really that simple! If you run out of the map tiers that you want, run lower content until you acquire them again, and invest into map drops in your atlas so you don't encounter that issue. Or, trade for the waystones. Nothing you said makes sense. It's whiney. It's like you're trying to come up with an excuse for why your build sucks. No one gets free rides to level 100, and no one ever should. It should be an accomplishment reserved for GOOD players. GGG and the majority of the community agrees with me on this for a reason. It's good gameplay design, and it feels extremely satisfying and rewarding when your build becomes a success through hard work.