The cost of death!

GeoFruck makes some good points and it's impossible to know true numbers for games across multiple formats and digital stores or launchers, but I also fail to see how turning this into a dick measuring contest between PoE2 numbers and D4 numbers is going to accomplish much. All that really matters is knowing how many people consider PoE2's death penalties to be a, say, top 3 reason to stop playing and we won't know that without GGG giving people a 2 minute survey to gauge why they stop playing.

For me in PoE1, it always ends up being a mix of the exp penalty, gear progression, and whether I have other games vying for my attention at the time. I can't remember the leagues anymore that I have in my mind right now or which one was my last (I want to say it was Ultimatum), but my single most powerful and successful build I ever did (with a couple ideas from a former MMO guild mate) got me to level like 93 or 94, and eventually I just gave up because the exp penalty was too intense for how slow the exp gain was, and it was nigh impossible to find gear that genuinely increased by damage or survivability (and mine was honestly above average at best). I've never made a blue or green side build quite seem to work (either just decisions that didn't work out or my gear always sucked), I've always preferred Marauder and Duelist, so I had the added problem of armor/life which always sucked in PoE1 compared to ES, as well. Eventually, the sense of progress just falls apart, and the sheer intense pressure the game puts on you to juice as hard as you can in the hopes of getting a proper drop only to die once or twice after hours of progress for like maybe 10-15% exp progress with literally no upgrades to show for it becomes too much to bear and I give up. My last or second to last league before giving up and just waiting for PoE2 I burned the equivalent of 800 chaos and deterministic craft currencies/league mechanics and still didn't land a single upgrade on just a chest piece of ilvl like 82 and boss enhanced for the end game chase mods. Just fuck that shit to hell, man. There's a reason I pushed nearly 500 hours into Last Epoch before its v1.0; you always feel a sense of progress on gear and levels. I just can't stomach another Lagon fight and its end game grows tedious rather quickly, so waiting out on their next big update.

PoE2 so far, as poor as its current state of end game progression feels, does seem to give me more gear. Even despite my struggles, I do occasionally land a slightly better armor or boots or accessory or something, and it is fucking stupid how little it matters with how bad life/armor is right now given ES builds could handle three to four times the damage that ends up one shotting me regardless of type. When I already have the game pressuring me to give up because end game progression becomes finding snowballs in hell, the current death penalties are kicks in the teeth after already being punched in the gut and falling down. A game shouldn't stop being fun because of its death penalties, for real.

I think a fair penalty is you lose the experience you gained on that map, and maybe the loot from that map as well. Basically resetting you to a point before you entered the map. You're penalized for failing the map, but not so egregiously that you have to grind your way back up.

Just my thought.

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

I personally don't really believe anything GGG says at this point. But, even if that's true, 51/49 could be considered as "most", or something above that.

The point still being that there is too much gray area to just be pulling steam numbers and saying "them's the facts!", which happens a lot around here in an attempt to paint PoE(2) as some kind of superstar.

The plain and simple truth of the matter is that all games have been going downhill for years now, and having to pick something from the bottom of the barrel and saying "well, this isn't as bad as the others" doesn't make it good. It's just better than the other stuff that's worse.

I was hoping for a break-out with PoE2, and it might still happen, but I doubt it. Too much baggage and lack of innovation where it counts. I honestly think that the best that the GGG diehards can hope for is a PoE clone and for them to keep you all engaged and interested. No substantial amount of new people, though, imho. We shall see.

So... what is your point? We can literally prove to you that the "Path of Exile" player base is growing from year to year and from league to league, constantly.

How many ppl will play PoE2 on full release is nothing we can even guess. We had to compare a paid "Early Access" (beta) with a F2P game and we don't know how PoE2 will be on full release. Even now we only got 6 out of 12 classes, only 12 out of 36 ascendancies, only 3 out of 6 Acts, 50 out of 100 bosses, 400 out of 800 mobs, the crafting isn't where it will be, the end game is completely bare bones, half the uniques and many base items are missing and so on.
A lot of ppl are just not interested in an "Early Access" version of a game, especially not when the game on release will be free.

While most PoE veterans already "cleared/finished" PoE2 atm, if you look at new PoE players - many of them still enjoy the game. For 2 months in, that's pretty good.

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Lightbrazer#4671 wrote:

Personally I think dying should kick you back to your hideout without losing exp. The player then gets to make a choice. They can either lose 10% exp to use one of their portals and re-enter the map. OR they can load a new waystone into the map node and lose all the prior modifiers on the tile. It’s pretty clear some players value the map/modifiers and not the exp and others highly value the exp and don’t mind running a blank tile. Death would have a penalty either way but the player gets agency in choosing which loss they take.

Another variation: The XP penalty stays, but instead allow keeping the map in exchange for gold. A player can afford to save a map every once in a while but it gets more expensive for harder content and repeat deaths.

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

My latest point is this: PoE2 has caused a serious kerfuffle for GGG's community, and I don't know if they can fix it to any great degree. PoE2's gameplay is not far enough of a departure from PoE to draw an appreciable amount of people into the community. All it will do is divide the current community into either 1 or 2, unless they stagger the leagues, in which case some may do both. But, unless they depart from the baggage, they will probably not draw new people.

Bringing it back to topic (and thank you captain), the xp penalty needs to be addressed. It's also one of the reasons why I left PoE, combined with other annoyances that just accumulated in end-game. They'd be better off having the penalty start at the beginning of the game then to wait until end-game (probably progressive, like Grim Dawn, with the chance to get your body/tombstone to get some back, like D2/GD), and have someone excited to finally make it, and BAM, welcome to new mechanics...we were waiting for you to get here. You trudged through the crappy drop rates, probably barely made it, now let's hit you with xp penalty, loss of waystone, did you forget to pick up some loot? well, too bad, no marginal loot for you. It's just not the same game you play up until that point. Oh, and don't forget to go to the crappy trade site, since that's the only way to improve your gear.

This game could actually be the king of ARPGs and set a new bar, but not the way they've been doing it so far.

And, please, for the drama queens, you don't have to turn it into D4 to make it a more fun and rewarding experience. It can be a challenging and skills-based game if they can figure out how to balance things properly. In my experience, that's just never been one of their strong suits.

Have you listened to completely new ppl or those who tried PoE1, but don't liked the gameplay? That ppl like the different gameplay can you find all over the place. Sure, with meta builds it fades away in late-game and is not well-balanced atm, but you can choose to play a gameplay-intense and fun character.
That's not really a thing in PoE with the clunky af gameplay.

Sometimes, when I read comments like this, I think to myself - do other ppl think at all?

You think the EXP loss would be better right from the start? You mean... at a point where losing EXP literally doesn't matter and will never ever slow you down in a noticeable way and/or oppose any factor of risk? Yeah... that will show them.

Do you don't realise that we don't have an actual transition from Acts to the end game atm? It's unreal that ppl don't get that... the transition happens in Acts 4-6. That's where the game gets increasingly closer to how the end game will be. We just don't have Act 4-6 right now and got a placeholder where monsters got more health, that's it. Obviously, it plays differently when you go from "not even halfway into the campaign" to "end game" while you miss on all the introductions that would be there with a full campaign.

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

Genuine question: didn't D4 make USD600 million basically at launch with prices ranging between $70 and $100-ish?
Wouldn't this mean they sold anything between 60 and 85 million copies?

On June 6, 2023, Blizzard Entertainment announced that Diablo IV became the fastest-selling game in Blizzard Entertainment's history. Diablo IV generated $666 million in revenue within the first five days after launch, and reached 12 million players by August 2023.

$666 ? The Devil ? In a Diablo game ?

Lol, I don't buy it.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

Genuine question: didn't D4 make USD600 million basically at launch with prices ranging between $70 and $100-ish?
Wouldn't this mean they sold anything between 60 and 85 million copies?

On June 6, 2023, Blizzard Entertainment announced that Diablo IV became the fastest-selling game in Blizzard Entertainment's history. Diablo IV generated $666 million in revenue within the first five days after launch, and reached 12 million players by August 2023.

$666 ? The Devil ? In a Diablo game ?

Lol, I don't buy it.

Still, USD 1 billion in revenue at the end of 2Q24, with $150M being MTX, so still $850M, considering base game and expansion.

So, again, 60-85 millions copies sold, isn't it?

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Just to make my position clear. I don't think the xp penalty should be in this game at all. Not in the form it currently is. It's a lazy, artificial slow down method to prevent people from getting to max level. The mentality that max level should only be achievable by a small percentage needs to go, too. The devs need to get on the stick and actually design some engaging end game content that will keep people interested enough to keep playing after max level is achieved. This is what would keep people sticking around to play after the level incentive is gone.

Imagine demanding something to get removed YOU don't understand.
It's not lazy, nore an "artificial slowing" method and especially not the prevent ppl from reaching level 100 - it's just simple.

You die - you lose exp. The end.

What would your solution to a punishment on death? A punishment that is ONLY related to the death of your character?
Because "yeah, but I lose my map yadda yadda too" is NOT exclusively a "on death" punishment. That's a result you can get otherwise too. So, how would YOU punish death?

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Every indication so far shows that they will continue their PoE tradition of having OP, exploitative builds, purposefully built into the game. This is why I believe that they don't know how to balance their game, they've never shown that they can. Unless it's all intentional, but then you have to ask, why?

Bruh... exploits will be fixed, but that you become a "God" at some point in the game and basically can trivialise everything the game has to offer IS the power fantasy this game is made for. Always was and always will be.
That has nothing to do with their ability to balance stuff.

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Your lack of objectivity and unquestioning worship of GGG is now coming through, loud and clear.

Always the same. Statements without anything to prove what you are saying.

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It is clear, however, that the overwhelming majority of players do not like it and find it detracts from the entertainment of the game

Majority? Prove it. Where are all the players who are enough to form a majority who want it to be removed? The few ppl here in the forum? Yeah... convincing when around 2 million ppl play PoE2.

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That's why I mentioned the "Lvl 100 is only for the 1337!!!1!1!" garbage. This mentality is where the xp death penalty ultimately comes from, which is why I say it's lazy. Because it is.

That's in fact wrong. The developer did not put the "exp penalty" into the game because they wanted some "1337 garbage". It's really not hard to understand.

IF you want to get the last part of any "power" in the game (min/maxing) you need to put A LOT into the game, and no, not time. Time is ALWAYS a factor.
Everything after a point stops being mandatory. After level 90 every level is not mandatory, after you got decent gear - an improvement is not mandatory.

It's so weird that you think getting level 100 is only a time thing when it is not. Ask PoE veterans, many of them don't level to 100 because it takes more than "just time". And if you don't believe them - go and level a character to 100 and come back to tell me "it only takes time".

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I dare say that some of the folks strutting around here acting like they are one of those players would not be proven out as actually skillful if competing in that environment. That's why these people don't want anything to change that much (along with the obvious psychological conditioning that's taken place) around here. Just keep it a knowledge/gear based game, forget about the skill. Sorry(-ish), PoE has never been a skill based game, as much as people and the devs try to portray it as such, which means PoE2 will likely follow the same mold.

Are you able to base your statement on anything besides your own impression?

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That removes it from being a true "hardcore" game, too. Those are skill based. Hardcore is not: put up with crappy loot, struggle with crappy trade, and jump through all these artificial hurdles (xp loss on death) to get to max level, so you can portray yourself as "god-like" in a game. I'm actually sorry if anyone around here thinks that that is an actual accomplishment. If you're getting paid, sure, that turns into something tangible (like all the RMTs that lurk and comment around here), but otherwise it's just wasting your time for an illusory status. Ultimately, it's delusional.

Are you confused about what kinds of "skill" exist or do you struggle with words in general? Nobody ever claimed that the exp loss is a "skill check" based on your mechanical skill.
Furthermore, the "God" fantasy is IN-GAME and not how ppl present themselves outside of the game when they have a "God-like" character. Has nothing to do with your "status strawman".

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But, it does turn into real money for Tencent/GGG. The house always wins. So, you all keep telling yourself that you're awesome and that you "know better" and that people that don't "know" or "understand" are the wacky ones. Whatever makes you feel better...I really don't care.

Yes. Big brain move from GGG and Tencent to make a game not everyone wants to play because it's too punishing and has a high learning curve. That's some 4D chess stuff, right!?

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Most of what I see around here, with the toxic vets, are stockholmers with ludopathy, who don't want their casino taken away or changed too much. It's not about having an actual engaging and challenging gaming experience. And, again, Tencent/GGG banks on that continuing.

Dude, don't project yourself onto others. The PoE community is actually really wholesome and helps new ppl so much - it's hard to find a comparison. What the community does NOT like are whining ppl who refuse everything.
Refuse to respect the game, the community, the learning curve, etc. and instead blame their "non-enjoyment" on everything besides themselves.
Yeah dude... we should welcome these toxic ppl in the community, nah, better go somewhere else.