One portal and experience penalty... again...

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

I think the xp penalty or the one portal would be ok, I’m used to the xp penalty from PoE1 and dislike (intensely) the PoE2 one portal mechanic as a forced feature.
Neither are going to be new player friendly and will affect retention.

That said, if one portal became a character creation option (like HC and ssf) with a benefit say +10% rarity just for example I’d take that choice all day long.
As for xp penalty I think, particularly new/newer players, people fixate on too much. It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map. Getting that next level isn’t an objective it’s just one point on a passive tree, what’s important is getting better gear to improve your dmg and defences and this takes time.

I’ve always found this argument to be both ridiculous and hypocritical. If punishment is necessary and acceptable, then why did people invent the ESC logout trick to save themselves? I don’t believe any experienced player hasn’t used ESC! Every one of you can hit ESC faster than anyone, yet you’re all sitting here saying punishment is necessary! It’s so hypocritical!

If it’s truly necessary and acceptable, why not just accept your death with dignity?

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zhuceguole#5160 wrote:

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

I think the xp penalty or the one portal would be ok, I’m used to the xp penalty from PoE1 and dislike (intensely) the PoE2 one portal mechanic as a forced feature.
Neither are going to be new player friendly and will affect retention.

That said, if one portal became a character creation option (like HC and ssf) with a benefit say +10% rarity just for example I’d take that choice all day long.
As for xp penalty I think, particularly new/newer players, people fixate on too much. It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map. Getting that next level isn’t an objective it’s just one point on a passive tree, what’s important is getting better gear to improve your dmg and defences and this takes time.

I’ve always found this argument to be both ridiculous and hypocritical. If punishment is necessary and acceptable, then why did people invent the ESC logout trick to save themselves? I don’t believe any experienced player hasn’t used ESC! Every one of you can hit ESC faster than anyone, yet you’re all sitting here saying punishment is necessary! It’s so hypocritical!

If it’s truly necessary and acceptable, why not just accept your death with dignity?

I'm for the xp loss on death and one portal and I never used esc or logout macro to save my ass from death. When death comes I accept it because that's the part of the game. I also don't understand people who use that (same as for those who use RMT).

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zhuceguole#5160 wrote:

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

I think the xp penalty or the one portal would be ok, I’m used to the xp penalty from PoE1 and dislike (intensely) the PoE2 one portal mechanic as a forced feature.
Neither are going to be new player friendly and will affect retention.

That said, if one portal became a character creation option (like HC and ssf) with a benefit say +10% rarity just for example I’d take that choice all day long.
As for xp penalty I think, particularly new/newer players, people fixate on too much. It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map. Getting that next level isn’t an objective it’s just one point on a passive tree, what’s important is getting better gear to improve your dmg and defences and this takes time.

I’ve always found this argument to be both ridiculous and hypocritical. If punishment is necessary and acceptable, then why did people invent the ESC logout trick to save themselves? I don’t believe any experienced player hasn’t used ESC! Every one of you can hit ESC faster than anyone, yet you’re all sitting here saying punishment is necessary! It’s so hypocritical!

If it’s truly necessary and acceptable, why not just accept your death with dignity?

Same reason why people still save scum if a game allows unlimited saves while also thinking save scumming ruin the game. [Removed by Support] Just because you play by the rules and use them to your advantage doesn't mean you have to like them.

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map.

It's only a problem because setting up your maps is tedious, unbelievably unfun, and takes too much time. This problem will remain even if one portal rule is removed.

The problem of it being tedious and unfun will remain (that's why it should be changed as well), but at least you won't get one of your nodes wiped if you die once.

- You spend a lot of time exploring the Atlas looking for overlapping towers to juice your nodes
- You do the optimal route to these towers and run each one
- You find and roll your good tablets (an asset with its own value)
- Add them to the towers
- You get 5-10 good juiced nodes to run
- You find and roll your good T15+ waystones (another asset with its own value)

This means that if you die once, your node is wiped, 10-20% of your effort goes to waste, plus part of the value from the tablet and the loss of the waystone.
The fact 99% of endgame deaths are cheap invisible 1-shots doesn't help PoE's case with death punishment

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map.

It's only a problem because setting up your maps is tedious, unbelievably unfun, and takes too much time. This problem will remain even if one portal rule is removed.

The problem of it being tedious and unfun will remain (that's why it should be changed as well), but at least you won't get one of your nodes wiped if you die once.

- You spend a lot of time exploring the Atlas looking for overlapping towers to juice your nodes
- You do the optimal route to these towers and run each one
- You find and roll your good tablets (an asset with its own value)
- Add them to the towers
- You get 5-10 good juiced nodes to run
- You find and roll your good T15+ waystones (another asset with its own value)

This means that if you die once, your node is wiped, 10-20% of your effort goes to waste, plus part of the value from the tablet and the loss of the waystone.
The fact 99% of endgame deaths are cheap invisible 1-shots doesn't help PoE's case with death punishment

This is literally what treating a symptom instead of the illness looks like. Like in every thread about XP penalty i see this "it's not fun because one shots" or "it's not fun because it's a waste of a map i spent so much time tediously juicing".

If you guys focused on one shots and unnecessary tedium instead i think very few people would argue.

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

This is literally what treating a symptom instead of the illness looks like. Like in every thread about XP penalty i see this "it's not fun because one shots" or "it's not fun because it's a waste of a map i spent so much time tediously juicing".

If you guys focused on one shots and unnecessary tedium instead i think very few people would argue.

Wholeheartedly agree, but changing one-shots, visibility and completely revamping core endgame mechanics that have already been developed is not going to happen.

We've known GGG for more than a decade now.
They had the chance to change things in PoE 1 and they didn't.
They had the chance to make a better game with PoE 2 and they didn't. They actually made it worse.

We have better odds by asking them to roll back the 1-death stupidity and maybe adding extra checkpoints in level progression. Let's say, you can't drop the below the previous multiple of 10% in your level progression (e.g. if you die with 22% progression, you're dropped to 20% and can't be dropped below that).

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

This is literally what treating a symptom instead of the illness looks like. Like in every thread about XP penalty i see this "it's not fun because one shots" or "it's not fun because it's a waste of a map i spent so much time tediously juicing".

If you guys focused on one shots and unnecessary tedium instead i think very few people would argue.

Wholeheartedly agree, but changing one-shots, visibility and completely revamping core endgame mechanics that have already been developed is not going to happen.

We've known GGG for more than a decade now.
They had the chance to change things in PoE 1 and they didn't.
They had the chance to make a better game with PoE 2 and they didn't. They actually made it worse.

We have better odds by asking them to roll back the 1-death stupidity and maybe adding extra checkpoints in level progression. Let's say, you can't drop the below the previous multiple of 10% in your level progression (e.g. if you die with 22% progression, you're dropped to 20% and can't be dropped below that).

This entire thing reminds me of what happened to Final Fantasy Online. The original game was absolutely horrible. Yet, the company humbled itself, and went back to the drawing board, and listened to the players. Which resulted in a very popular, very fun game for a lot of people. People love it now.

Except, in this case. GGG is still trucking along, thinking that they're going to have two completely separate, but very similar versions of PoE. And I just don't see it going well, especially given their stated vision, as well as them telling the players asking for changes, and a new game. No.

I don't see this ending well. But in the end. I'm only out 40 bucks. What is GGG out if it fails because of arrogance? 100 million? How many man hours?

And is the company going to survive? Because people are getting fed up with stuff like this.. They're just walking away now.

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

This is literally what treating a symptom instead of the illness looks like. Like in every thread about XP penalty i see this "it's not fun because one shots" or "it's not fun because it's a waste of a map i spent so much time tediously juicing".

If you guys focused on one shots and unnecessary tedium instead i think very few people would argue.

Wholeheartedly agree, but changing one-shots, visibility and completely revamping core endgame mechanics that have already been developed is not going to happen.

We've known GGG for more than a decade now.
They had the chance to change things in PoE 1 and they didn't.
They had the chance to make a better game with PoE 2 and they didn't. They actually made it worse.

We have better odds by asking them to roll back the 1-death stupidity and maybe adding extra checkpoints in level progression. Let's say, you can't drop the below the previous multiple of 10% in your level progression (e.g. if you die with 22% progression, you're dropped to 20% and can't be dropped below that).

Well in all these years they didn't remove XP penalty as well even though people complained all the time. What makes you think they'll remove it now instead of fixing the endgame mechanics which they admitted was made quickly just for EA to have any endgame at all and it's most likely a subject to change?

I'm afraid that these threads divert devs attention from actual issues into treating symptoms.

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

Well in all these years they didn't remove XP penalty as well even though people complained all the time. What makes you think they'll remove it now instead of fixing the endgame mechanics which they admitted was made quickly just for EA to have any endgame at all and it's most likely a subject to change?

Because:

1) GGG doesn't back down on their own mistakes, so completely removing endgame mechanics for something else is unlikely IMO.

2) PoE 2 is a new game and I'm not asking for the removal of exp penalty. I'm just asking for added checkpoints so that the pushback on death doesn't translate to literal hours of grinding being wiped.