Crossbow Reload vs Infinite Spear Throws - A Design Mismatch That Undermines Combat Balance

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Galtrovan#5344 wrote:

I have no idea why "reload" was implemented in POE2. POE2 is an action RPG. "Reload" has no place in the game, especially when, one, the implementation makes zero sense, and is inconsistent. And two, the concept of reload can be completely controlled by the weapon's attack speed.

Crossbow reload is just silly, and completely unnecessary.

Cheers, man! Honestly, reload in an action RPG? It’s like putting a speed bump in the middle of a race track. Totally unnecessary and just messes with the flow!

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

Having to constantly reload feels bad, especially when the loop becomes: change ammo, reload, use skill, change ammo again, reload again. It kills the pacing.

I'm not convinced this is how they expect most people to use Crossbows. Not to say the design is elegant currently, but it feels like the intent for many of the skills is to act as openers or finishers rather than core combat abilities that you should be constantly reloading during combat.

I'll say it doesn't seem entirely intuitive and I decided to "give grenades a try" instead early on and so far I haven't gone back because I'm having a ton of fun w/ my current setup which is 2x Ripwire Ballista, 5x Oil Grenade, 3x Explosive Grenade. I'm still shooting Basic Bolts w/ the occasional Emergency Reload.

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Cheers, man! Honestly, reload in an action RPG? It’s like putting a speed bump in the middle of a race track. Totally unnecessary and just messes with the flow!

I don't think it's fair to characterize reload this way -- at the end of the day it's just another way to introduce delays into the use of skills are more powerful than your typical "click-and-go" skills.

Reload isn't alone in being a way to delay or constrain big hitters - there are wind-ups, cooldowns, limits, interrupts, building up seals/charges/combos, placement times, etc., etc. These are all just ways to make certain skills require additional investment of time and effort.

If reload is removed then Crossbows are just horizontal Bows, no?

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

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Gorbarr#2442 wrote:

So I can see how they look mismatched at a glance, and I've played both, but I think crossbow reloading isn't a problem in itself. There are ways the entire crossbow gameplay has advantages that counterbalance the downsides. For instance, the support that increases damage after reloading for each bolt loaded. For the rapid fire types it's a huge damage bonus. Don't have that with spears. Crossbows have both great single target ammo and wide target ammo. Spears have mediocre single target long range skills. Grenades can be so strong some rely solely on them. Ballista with rage font. Tactician's pin seems broken. Witchunter's explosions clear screens. Spear skills rely on getting up close and jumping out, the downside is the risk of going close - crossbows can stay away all you want, so reloading is the downside. Otherwise there's no risk and without risk there's no game.

I get where you're coming from, and it's true that crossbows have strong supports and ammo variety. But you’ve tried both, right? So tell me honestly, in the current patch, do you think it’s balanced between the two? And when it comes to late-game mapping, do you personally prefer crossbow or spear?

Also, curious, why bring up Ascendancy skills like Witchhunter explosions or Tactician pin when I can use a spear on Witchhunter too? The class doesn’t lock you into one weapon, so it still comes down to how the weapons themselves function. And right now, spear just plays smoother with fewer restrictions. That’s the issue.

Because in theory the merc ascendancies are tuned for crossbows, even if they work universally. If anything, crossbows are much better in .2 than .1. They've fixed aiming (still needs more work but it was worse), they've fixed some bugs with it (more work, you get it) and added universal reload instead of needing to reload each skill with each assigned button. They also raised the damage of all crossbows. If I endured .1 till endgame, I'd swim in .2 if I were using it. I did a little, felt OP even for act 1, went back to continue levelling huntress. I feel like I put more effort in my spear skills in endgame than I would need for crossbows (though I haven't tried an a/b comparison yet).

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Kerchunk#7797 wrote:

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

Having to constantly reload feels bad, especially when the loop becomes: change ammo, reload, use skill, change ammo again, reload again. It kills the pacing.

I'm not convinced this is how they expect most people to use Crossbows. Not to say the design is elegant currently, but it feels like the intent for many of the skills is to act as openers or finishers rather than core combat abilities that you should be constantly reloading during combat.

I'll say it doesn't seem entirely intuitive and I decided to "give grenades a try" instead early on and so far I haven't gone back because I'm having a ton of fun w/ my current setup which is 2x Ripwire Ballista, 5x Oil Grenade, 3x Explosive Grenade. I'm still shooting Basic Bolts w/ the occasional Emergency Reload.

I get what you're saying, but I still feel like the reload mechanic is holding crossbows back, even if they're meant as openers or finishers. The issue isn’t about their role in combat, it’s the constant reload interrupting the flow. You can't use them effectively as finishers when you’re stuck in a reload cycle, even if the skills are designed for big damage moments.

As for grenades, it’s interesting that you’re having a lot of fun with that setup, it does highlight the issue with crossbows. If a different skill type like grenades feels smoother and more engaging, there’s definitely something off with how crossbows are currently implemented.

but again i bring this issue because of spear and how smooth it's, how can you spam a spear? while crossbow need to reload, im not talking about just 1 weapon, im talking about the others aswell.

I think if we could reload while dashing and the reload animation not affect the movement speed, will be nice and enough to fix this clunky thing about reload. If you dash and try to reload any skill, the reload will be slower for some reason, just let us reload while dashing.

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Gorbarr#2442 wrote:

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

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Gorbarr#2442 wrote:

So I can see how they look mismatched at a glance, and I've played both, but I think crossbow reloading isn't a problem in itself. There are ways the entire crossbow gameplay has advantages that counterbalance the downsides. For instance, the support that increases damage after reloading for each bolt loaded. For the rapid fire types it's a huge damage bonus. Don't have that with spears. Crossbows have both great single target ammo and wide target ammo. Spears have mediocre single target long range skills. Grenades can be so strong some rely solely on them. Ballista with rage font. Tactician's pin seems broken. Witchunter's explosions clear screens. Spear skills rely on getting up close and jumping out, the downside is the risk of going close - crossbows can stay away all you want, so reloading is the downside. Otherwise there's no risk and without risk there's no game.

I get where you're coming from, and it's true that crossbows have strong supports and ammo variety. But you’ve tried both, right? So tell me honestly, in the current patch, do you think it’s balanced between the two? And when it comes to late-game mapping, do you personally prefer crossbow or spear?

Also, curious, why bring up Ascendancy skills like Witchhunter explosions or Tactician pin when I can use a spear on Witchhunter too? The class doesn’t lock you into one weapon, so it still comes down to how the weapons themselves function. And right now, spear just plays smoother with fewer restrictions. That’s the issue.

Because in theory the merc ascendancies are tuned for crossbows, even if they work universally. If anything, crossbows are much better in .2 than .1. They've fixed aiming (still needs more work but it was worse), they've fixed some bugs with it (more work, you get it) and added universal reload instead of needing to reload each skill with each assigned button. They also raised the damage of all crossbows. If I endured .1 till endgame, I'd swim in .2 if I were using it. I did a little, felt OP even for act 1, went back to continue levelling huntress. I feel like I put more effort in my spear skills in endgame than I would need for crossbows (though I haven't tried an a/b comparison yet).

Absolutely, you're right that crossbows are in a much better spot in 0.2 compared to 0.1, the aiming improvements, bug fixes, universal reload, and flat damage buffs are all legit upgrades. It’s clear that GGG is actively refining the archetype, and that effort’s appreciated.

But just to be clear,this discussion isn’t only about crossbows. It's about the inconsistency between weapon systems. Crossbows have reloads and downtime baked in as a design choice. Spears, on the other hand, let you throw endlessly with no retrieval, cooldown, or reload equivalent. That’s where the core issue lies.

Even if crossbows feel smoother and more powerful now, they still operate on a different set of rules. And when you're comparing ranged weapons side-by-side, especially in late game mapping, that inconsistency can break immersion and create balance friction.

We’re not asking for crossbows to be nerfed or spears to be useless, but if one ranged weapon is slowed down by reloads and the other isn’t penalized at all for constant throwing, there’s a fundamental gap in design logic that needs addressing.

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Kerchunk#7797 wrote:

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

Having to constantly reload feels bad, especially when the loop becomes: change ammo, reload, use skill, change ammo again, reload again. It kills the pacing.

I'm not convinced this is how they expect most people to use Crossbows. Not to say the design is elegant currently, but it feels like the intent for many of the skills is to act as openers or finishers rather than core combat abilities that you should be constantly reloading during combat.

I'll say it doesn't seem entirely intuitive and I decided to "give grenades a try" instead early on and so far I haven't gone back because I'm having a ton of fun w/ my current setup which is 2x Ripwire Ballista, 5x Oil Grenade, 3x Explosive Grenade. I'm still shooting Basic Bolts w/ the occasional Emergency Reload.

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Cheers, man! Honestly, reload in an action RPG? It’s like putting a speed bump in the middle of a race track. Totally unnecessary and just messes with the flow!

I don't think it's fair to characterize reload this way -- at the end of the day it's just another way to introduce delays into the use of skills are more powerful than your typical "click-and-go" skills.

Reload isn't alone in being a way to delay or constrain big hitters - there are wind-ups, cooldowns, limits, interrupts, building up seals/charges/combos, placement times, etc., etc. These are all just ways to make certain skills require additional investment of time and effort.

If reload is removed then Crossbows are just horizontal Bows, no?

That’s a fair take, reload is one of many ways to pace powerful skills, and in theory, that’s not a bad thing. But the issue isn’t that reload exists, it’s that reload is exclusive to one weapon type, while other ranged options, like spears or bows, often deal comparable damage without that same constraint.

If reload was part of a broader system of tactical pacing across all ranged weapons, it’d feel more natural. But right now, it makes crossbows feel like they’re playing a different game, where their power budget is taxed by downtime that other weapons just sidestep entirely.

And yeah, if reload was removed, crossbows would be closer to bows, but they’d still be unique through ammo types, skill effects. It wouldn’t erase their identity, it would just level the playing field in terms of flow and responsiveness.

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

We’re not asking for crossbows to be nerfed or spears to be useless, but if one ranged weapon is slowed down by reloads and the other isn’t penalized at all for constant throwing, there’s a fundamental gap in design logic that needs addressing.

Like I said, it's because they want to give each weapon a risk and reward mechanic. Crossbows would be absurdly overpowered without reload. They'd have to nerf the power of all skills to keep the dps in check. The design philosophy is that each weapon represents an archetype in the str/dex/int wheel, with crossbows depending on both str and dex. And the downside of str is reduced speed while giving you more power. Dex weapons like bows and spears can have spam because they don't have the oomph of str. Crossbows also don't need to get up close to do anything.

That design philosophy won't change, it's baked in. What can change is balance adjustments to make the risk vs reward feel better. There are also many nodes to increase skill speed and reload skill specifically. By endgame you should have all of these and reloads go quickly. You can remove the supports that reduce the skill speed from certain skills that you feel are becoming too slow. Some skills that come with few bolts like 1 or 2 are not meant to be spammed by design, they're just finishers or whatever. The spammy ammo types already come with dozens of bolts. Normal bolt shot is OP in early game with a couple of supports.

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dalTKxadrez#5194 wrote:

I think if we could reload while dashing and the reload animation not affect the movement speed, will be nice and enough to fix this clunky thing about reload. If you dash and try to reload any skill, the reload will be slower for some reason, just let us reload while dashing.

Totally agree, being able to reload while dashing without the movement speed penalty would smooth out a lot of the clunkiness. Right now, it feels like you’re getting punished for trying to play responsively.

But even with that fix, if spears are still spammable and flow smoothly with no downtime, it still creates a gap in fairness. One ranged weapon demands careful windows and reload timing, while the other just keeps going. So yeah, QoL for reloads would help, but balance-wise, there’s still work to be done. In the end, spear will probably still clear maps faster

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Gorbarr#2442 wrote:

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Twelten#1961 wrote:

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Gorbarr#2442 wrote:

So I can see how they look mismatched at a glance, and I've played both, but I think crossbow reloading isn't a problem in itself. There are ways the entire crossbow gameplay has advantages that counterbalance the downsides. For instance, the support that increases damage after reloading for each bolt loaded. For the rapid fire types it's a huge damage bonus. Don't have that with spears. Crossbows have both great single target ammo and wide target ammo. Spears have mediocre single target long range skills. Grenades can be so strong some rely solely on them. Ballista with rage font. Tactician's pin seems broken. Witchunter's explosions clear screens. Spear skills rely on getting up close and jumping out, the downside is the risk of going close - crossbows can stay away all you want, so reloading is the downside. Otherwise there's no risk and without risk there's no game.

I get where you're coming from, and it's true that crossbows have strong supports and ammo variety. But you’ve tried both, right? So tell me honestly, in the current patch, do you think it’s balanced between the two? And when it comes to late-game mapping, do you personally prefer crossbow or spear?

Also, curious, why bring up Ascendancy skills like Witchhunter explosions or Tactician pin when I can use a spear on Witchhunter too? The class doesn’t lock you into one weapon, so it still comes down to how the weapons themselves function. And right now, spear just plays smoother with fewer restrictions. That’s the issue.

Because in theory the merc ascendancies are tuned for crossbows, even if they work universally. If anything, crossbows are much better in .2 than .1. They've fixed aiming (still needs more work but it was worse), they've fixed some bugs with it (more work, you get it) and added universal reload instead of needing to reload each skill with each assigned button. They also raised the damage of all crossbows. If I endured .1 till endgame, I'd swim in .2 if I were using it. I did a little, felt OP even for act 1, went back to continue levelling huntress. I feel like I put more effort in my spear skills in endgame than I would need for crossbows (though I haven't tried an a/b comparison yet).

That’s a solid breakdown of the design intent, and I get what GGG’s aiming for. But even if the philosophy is baked in, player experience still matters, and feeling clunky or slowed down too much, especially in an action ARPG, can break the flow for some. The current reload implementation sometimes leans more frustrating than “strategic.”

No, it won’t be broken without reload. Even with hefty investment, reload feels like a mini stun, and considering how harsh actual stuns are in this patch, adding another forced pause just adds to the frustration. And honestly, even if crossbows had no reload, I doubt there’d be a huge difference in map clear or boss kill speed compared to other ranged weapons like bows or spears. The gap just isn’t that wide in practice. Ideally, they could tune it so that risk vs reward feels good, not just makes sense on paper.