PoE2 Needs to Rethink XP Loss – Here’s a Simple Fix

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Summoner#7705 wrote:

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

1. It heavily discourages and even outright prevents engaging in challenging gameplay where death is a possibility. That makes the only viable gameplay boring repetitive gameplay. Bad design.

Why? I'm experimenting. If something doesn't work, I either create or run back to my portal and switch to something that works for me. If you're dying, it's not because you switched your build, it's because you have no defenses and you're not careful.

I'm referring to whether to click on a ritual, strongbox, engage a boss or whatever. Assuming the rest of the map is the right difficulty, I am literally forced to the mode of "Not worth the risk" for everything. The only mitigation to that is to play trivial content most of the time so that the challenging parts are viable options.

It's not about build, it's about being able to play at a gameplay style which you find engaging. If you are happy playing trivial content either because your build is super strong or you are playing low/unjuiced content then good for you. Removing the XP loss doesn't prevent you from doing that and it would almost certainly still be the most efficient way to play anyway.

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

2. If you have a bad run, it actually makes you go backwards. Which is simply never fun.

You cannot delevel.

I know that, but you certainly can lose a good chunk of a level. Which for the majority of players is a massive "I quit" moment.

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The punishment for dying is not significant until you're at a very high level

For you maybe. Maybe for POE1 vets who learned to cope with this stupid system long ago. Not for most gamers. Look at how many people find the Campaign difficult, which personally I think is fine.

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

3. It can actually force you to go down in difficulty in order to progress. For example you might be levelling fine on TX with an acceptable death rate but a level or three later if you haven't had any luck with drops that improve your defense the increased XP loss makes TX no longer viable as your death rate hasn't decreased proportionally. So now you are a few levels higher forced to go to TX-1, or TX-2 or whatever. So again progression is going backwards.

If this happens, it means you're doing something very wrong and the game is telling you to start thinking about your actions, because there are consequences.

Players do that whenever they die, they don't need to be smacked on the head with a hammer to know dying = bad. Every death is a setback already, multiple deaths waste a lot of time and potentially map mechanics, waystones etc. Players should be allowed to make that decision on what death rate is acceptable for themselves.

The scenario I described is not only possible but common due to the unreliable amount of useful loot dropping. BTW I am referring to SSF, Traders have it much easier but a lot of players just hate trading for various reasons.

It's a different topic but I do wish GGG would implement something like Last Epoch has. Although as a Console player I probably wouldn't benefit, it doesn't have SSF at all yet last I checked.

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It's a form of gatekeeping, which is good. Otherwise the game would appeal to absolute casuals. It shouldn't.

Casuals is badly defined but this is a terrible outlook if GGG actually want POE2 to have a broader appeal than POE1 did which is clearly a direction they are trying to expand in to some extent.

So sure, you can have your opinion that POE2 should only be for hardcore gamers but I think that's completely subjective and a terrible position for GGG to take.

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Some games should be hard, punishing, or have other forms of friction. If that's not what you want, great.

I never said that - I don't mind death being meaningful in fact I liked the 1-portal system. But I hate going backwards and being effectively told the level of gameplay difficulty and risk I most enjoy is not allowed. No, I must remain playing trivial content with almost no risk of death. Boring.

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

Add to this the fact that those who purport to rarely die would not in any way be negatively impacted by its removal

Not true. I rarely die, but the fact that I can die and have to pay the price is enough to maintain a certain tension in the gameplay.

Ok, maybe I was a bit off the mark but not entirely. That's an insignificant effect compared to the absolute annoyance and frustration that it causes. Plus there are many alternatives to make death impactful (like rewarding not dying) without making players go backwards.

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And it's also gatekeeping the game from complete casuals, which is great and something more games should do.

Interesting you have a new term "complete casuals" I haven't seen used before. I wonder who exactly is in that category? Because people I would consider 'complete casuals' would never even reach level 70 in this game during a league.

Your vision of 'casual' is warped, I think. And not in line with the types of 'casual' players GGG is trying to attract to POE2.

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I understand we probably have completely different views about game design and difficulty

Sure, and that's Ok. :)

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but just so we're on the same page, despite what people claim about XP loss on death, it doesn't seem to impact PoE 1's growth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK there has never been a time it didn't have it, so you cannot substantiate that claim. You can say it hasn't prevented it from growing over time, but you have no metric to compare how well it would have grown if not for this awful mechanic.

I could just as easily claim it did affect it because look at POE2 to see how many more players it might have had.

Overall I still think GGG needs to make up its mind - is it Ok to have challenging moment-to-moment gameplay or not? Right now that's what the campaign is for most players. Then suddenly you are hit with a bait and switch where death is a sin and must be heavily punished or you can't progress.

Punishment for dying should be slower progress. Or even no progress. It should not take away that which you have legitimately earned by successfully completing previous challenges.

I've sat here the last day or so following this topic and many ppl has posted with many varied opinions.

To those who have said, get better defensive layers. Very valid point and it would indeed help, but with the current state of loot / crafting and the sheer insanity of RNG when trying to roll a decent item its nearly impossible and you end up in a situation where to get the better gear, you need the better gear in the first place to stand a chance to get it. Plus I'm pretty sure most folks who are new to POE in general wouldn't know what a defensive layer is if it walked up to them and slapped them round the face. Could they look online for a guide? sure they could.. It takes a while though to find out what you need and to understand everything. I've been there and done that as I only started playing POE 1 a year or so ago and I've spent literally hours and hours trying to learn how the different mechanics work, such as defensive layers, resistances etc.

When you boil this issue down you get to the point where you ask yourself one question and one alone...

"Am I having fun?"

If the answer is yes, keep playing. If like a good few responses I've seen say no.. then perhaps GGG need to have a look at this mechanic. Pull up the data where people have died in game logged off and never came back. This forum is just a snapshot of the community as a whole, how many more people have got so frustrated that they had enough of dying over and over and walked away because they thought to themselves.. whats the point, why am I wasting my time?

If GGG want POE 2 to have a broader appeal than POE 1 its things like this they need to look into, I'm pretty sure GGG dont want players to get frustrated and walk away.

I’m level 97 I got to 20% on my current experience bar. it took me hours of juiced t15s with plus 60% experience gain on towers and waystones. I always use omen of amelioration and because I have died 4 times I am back to 0% it is a joke I’m done with poe2 until they wipe experience loss it’s such a let down to know you’ve been pushed so far back after so much work. Last season I only got to level 97 again because of this

It has to be one of the dumbest business decisions ever. Create a mechanic that gets users to completely stop playing.

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mainloot#0810 wrote:

It has to be one of the dumbest business decisions ever. Create a mechanic that gets users to completely stop playing.

You really think 500k people stopped because of that?

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ihaveapickle101#9583 wrote:

I’m level 97 I got to 20% on my current experience bar. it took me hours of juiced t15s with plus 60% experience gain on towers and waystones. I always use omen of amelioration and because I have died 4 times I am back to 0% it is a joke I’m done with poe2 until they wipe experience loss it’s such a let down to know you’ve been pushed so far back after so much work. Last season I only got to level 97 again because of this

ahh please not these threads again

4 deaths with omen of amelioration equal 10% exp. not 20%

And how are you 97 and dying 4 times in a row in t15s without making any progress?

Issue seems between the screen and the chair rather than in the game.

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

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mainloot#0810 wrote:

It has to be one of the dumbest business decisions ever. Create a mechanic that gets users to completely stop playing.

You really think 500k people stopped because of that?

I think it is one of a handful of major issues that together tip the glass over. Crafting and trading add to it. It is the sole reason I quit several play sessions.

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CovidPatientZero#4772 wrote:

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

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mainloot#0810 wrote:

It has to be one of the dumbest business decisions ever. Create a mechanic that gets users to completely stop playing.

You really think 500k people stopped because of that?

I think it is one of a handful of major issues that together tip the glass over. Crafting and trading add to it. It is the sole reason I quit several play sessions.

So you're saying all newly released games, with a massive surge of initial players, and steep dropoff suffer from bad crafting and trading?

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ForsesGIT#6499 wrote:

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

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CovidPatientZero#4772 wrote:

So you're saying all newly released games, with a massive surge of initial players, and steep dropoff suffer from bad crafting and trading?

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one of a handful of major issues that together tip the glass over

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Crafting and trading add to it

Try to read before answer

Maybe you should.

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

So you're saying all newly released games, with a massive surge of initial players, and steep dropoff suffer from bad crafting and trading?

No, I didn't say that. You can read my post and see what I said instead of trying to falsely paraphrase with the typical "so you're saying" response