All these people complaining about "snapshotting" don't realize that the mechanic doesn't make the spec "OP" - what it does instead, is making the whole spec viable. The summoner gear and the summoner gems (zombies, spectres) are awful. Awful because the gear has zero synergy between different pieces and the gems, which are useless without at least a 5L or a +2 Helmet, are incredibly taxing on slots.
Imagine for a moment you run "summoner gear": You have 6L spectres on your Vis Mortis. You have 4L zombies on your Skullhead. 4L auras on your (thats, 3 auras) Bones of Ullr, and 4L skeletons on your gloves. Then you have your shield, lets call it Matua Tupuna, for your guardian. And then you slot another couple of auras on life on your Midnight Bargain.
So you have 5 auras - if lucky - with literally zero survibality for yourself (most of those are low level uniques... and even the higher level ones are dreadful) and minions that barely can handle half an AoE.
All other "specs" scale in power with itemization and gems. They gain survivability with gear and gems - Not summoners. Not if snapshotting is removed. Any high-end map (+77) boss without snapshotting will be nigh impossible.
Compare this with a CoE, BoR, AA, ST, or... really any end game item centered build doing damage in the hundreds of thousands; people only complain about summoners because it is the flavour of the month, because they have no clue about what they are talking about and because they are so self-centered that only know how to follow the noise.
All those "guides" telling people that you can build a summoner with "Less than 5ex and you can do all the content!" are bul***** and nothing other but blatant lies to try to promote their thread. The fact is, if you want to be half-competent and you expect to run anything past 66-70 maps you'll need to spend exalteds in the hundreds (or farm for months, if you want to go self-found) - and that is WITH snapshotting.
I can't even beggin to fathom how any summoner (or anyone with half an idea of what he is talking about and has tried to play as a summoner for more than 80 levels) could even think that using "summoner gear" (again, had snapshotting been removed) so the zombies/spectres are somewhat useful would be remotely viable on any map past 74.
I'm awful at English - it is not my first language, so I'm really sorry if I made some errors. This guy explained the issue perfectly:
"
Zaragau wrote:
I dont understand all the hate for summoners I see. Do you people not understand that minions are both a summoners main/only damage and survivability? I mean not being able to control your minions is as if your weapon/main skill gem just randomly fall from your hand and decide to run back behind a wall as you're running up to the boss of the map or a rogue exile.
Also as it stands minions are shit without using any of the summoner uniques and, since 90% of these are low level and horrible stats, you massively gimp yourself while wearing them.
This actually makes another problem that relates to smoke mine. It SUCKS when your minions die and they die a lot because they are absolutely retarded. You might think, well just summon some more, but assuming snapshotting was used to get them in the first place, so that they are strong and that the player is strong, its not that easy. So without either massively improved AI, or a way for minions to be micromanaged better and easier, playing summoner is much more annoying. And if snappshotting were removed without adding some high end versions of summoner uniques, summoners would be dead.
IGN:Earha
Last edited by Khov#1443 on Apr 7, 2014, 4:57:50 AM
Why was the Vaal Orbs Drop Rate reduced ? Im having a hard time imagining why it would be reduced considering how important they are for perm leagues item abundance control.
Harvest sucks! But look at my decked out gear two weeks in!
Labyrinth salt farm miner.
"But my build diversity" , "Game is too hard!" - Meta drone playing the same 1-3 builds for years.
Chris, the evangelist nerf is understandable, but the smoke mine nerf is completely unreasonable. There is no reason you should take away utility/easy of life from a build. Smoke mine is what made summoners playable imo. Being able to save your spectres and minions is HUGE. Playing a summoner is going to be a huge headache.
When I read patch notes these days, more often than not it seems as though GGG doesn't actually play their own game. At least not in the sense that it's meant to be played "hardcore". This is extremely evident in your balancing and nerfing. Nerfs often kill builds, this shouldn't be the case. And balancing seems to be quick, dirty, and over/under tuned.
On a side note, I don't even like playing summoners. But the smoke mine ability made the build, once snap shoting is gone the build will be all but dead.
I'll show you a gleaming example of this. Clearly whoever is making unique items does not understand the full potential of certain builds. Windripper is by far the best elemental bow in the game, infact the DPS one can achieve is similar if not surpassing that of a PERFECT mirrored bow. On top of that it has added rarity and quantity stats. How exactly does this slip past those designing uniques? they clearly don't understand elemental builds very well. The second I saw that bow, I knew ppl would be running around with 30k+ potential split arrow.
I do enjoy items that inspire builds, build design is the only reason I play the game. But if your intentions is to keep uniques on a lower tier than rares, you really fucked up with that bow. And it was glaringly obvious. Not to mention split arrow and bow builds have the most efficient and quickest clear speed in the game, by a decent margin.
Meanwhile you continue nerfing builds based around whatever the flavor of the month is. Take a different approach, this method kills player retention. If you make a league that pigeon holes people, you should expect to see one build rise to the top. Experiment with one week races, nerf between leagues, and make sure you REALLY understand the psychology of hardcore, before you add a bunch of one shot boss's and kill your league.
This. Please. GGG. FUCKING READ THIS 1000 MORE TIMES NOW.
1000 times this!
"
777isHARDCORE wrote:
While I disagree with the rest of his post, this:
"
Dellusions wrote:
...we've been telling you for over a year about stupid shit like the "your buddy logged in/out" toast windows overlapping the loot delve windows and you don't do a thing about it.
is for real.
The game is in full release. This still being there now, after the first mini-expansion, is almost beyond sloppy.
100,000 times this!
Last edited by Dynuel#5717 on Apr 7, 2014, 5:03:57 AM
Smoke Mine no longer teleports your minions with you when detonated.
Undying Evangelists' Proximity Shields have a shorter duration, and they use it less often.
We hope you enjoy 1.1.2! Thanks again for your feedback and ongoing support!
I thought that GGG didn't gut builds mid 4-month league?
The first one is a major QoL hit; if you've never played a summoner in indoor maps, your minions are retarded and often get stuck on walls...the only ways to get them off is to run a far enough distance so they tele to you (often dangerous, and unreliable since your minions will often just run with you on the other side of the wall...) or, prior to this patch, to quickly cast and detonate smoke mine. While this doesn't make my build weaker from a theoretical standpoint, the life of any summoner just got much more hectic in any map with walls (aka 70%+ of them).
The second one kills any hopes I had of killing atziri; while I could get stats that,combined with smart movement, let ME survive her, there is no way for my MINIONS to survive her without the shields evangelists provide, and thus no way to kill her. I've been taking my time (only 85 atm) but was hoping to grind up and try her in a month or so, but I guess its not going to happen now...
Is there any particular reason these nerfs hit mid-league? I am used to big nerfs happening between leagues, and can deal with that since I would be making new chars anyways, but mid-league it sort of saps my will to play; I like my char and was doing well in maps, and don't particularly want to reroll, but what choice do I have if I want to be able to kill atziri now? I'm not one of those types who buys kills...
Sounds like you are just presumptive and have no evidence to back of you claims.
Evidence?
Look at other patches with "reduced damage"
So tell me from where you get 20000 to 19500 damage from?
Unless you can provide actual data, all you do is assuming things you already have presumed.
Basically conformation bias.
While I on the other hand wait for actual feedback from people who fought the invasion bosses and also did so my self to see how well or un-well they have been balanced.
"
Hilbert wrote:
"
How about you are stop being an ungrateful prick and they might listen to you.
[Removed by Support]
Whatever you consider as "turned to shit" is pretty subjective. While I do not like and agree every change they've done in the last year doesn't mean they turned the game to shit. It just means that there have been changes you and others might not like.
I hated the leech changes and I dislike Invasion, I also think the smoke mine change is bad, but you know all we can do is tell them that it is bad and they might change it back.
When they nerfed life in Onslaught they rebuffed it in Nemesis. So they do learn from their mistakes.
All I can say is that they should use more Alpha Testers again to give feedback more and change accordingly.
"
“Hilbert“ wrote:
"
Oh no sarcasm which points out an actual flaw but is devalued by the previous tone of comments.
[Removed by Support]
Complete nonsequitor.
"
“Hilbert“ wrote:
"
Aka you have no clue and just spout nonsense like a toxic hate machine.
Again presumptive arguments backed up by nothing and just pull of your a**.
Again backup are other negative experiences with "dropbuffs"
Remember "Adjusted Invasion bosses drops according to their difficulty"
I killed every exile I met and they all still dropped utter garbage.
So wait what are we talking about? Invasion drops? Exile drops? Or does the patch note talk about drops of Atziri Puzzle Pieces?
Because you seem to be confused about what you want to hate on.
Again, test it then talk about it, or else your feedback is meaningless pessimism.
"
“Hilbert“ wrote:
Ripping off D2 in most parts and not being able to do stuff right that D2 did right.
The Hellfirequest in D2 required keys, they all had the same dropchance on specific bosses.
This is how you do a quest.
Atziri is just grinding bullshit. If several players do Sacrifice Piece runs for days and the result is like 60 Dusk 25 Dawn 5 Noon and 1 Midnight this is a stupid system.
Hey I agree with you. I liked killing a boss more than hoping to get one from the chest. Maybe they should make it so that additionally to a vaal gem also a puzzle piece drops, or in general make the Vaal Vessle drop additional items.
"
“Hilbert“ wrote:
"
Most likey not because they listen to whiny presumptive nay sayers like you.
If you want to give feedback reconsider your tone and your arguments, or else you just look like a complainy QQer who has nothing but hate in his views
Or maybe I use reverse psychology and want the game to fail as hard possible, who knows.
[Removed by Support]
The devs have obviously never played a hardcore game in their life if they still claim PoE is hardcore.
It became hardcore boring.
You should neither ass kiss nor be an entitled prick. Ass kissers are not helpful and entitled pricks are not listened too.
It‘s the balance (you hate so much in PoE) that makes good feedback. Tell what you dislike and offer a solution. If enough people do so and it is not actually bad for the game then they will implement it.
Last edited by Jake_GGG#0000 on Apr 7, 2014, 5:11:44 AM
Chris, the evangelist nerf is understandable, but the smoke mine nerf is completely unreasonable. There is no reason you should take away utility/easy of life from a build. Smoke mine is what made summoners playable imo. Being able to save your spectres and minions is HUGE. Playing a summoner is going to be a huge headache.
When I read patch notes these days, more often than not it seems as though GGG doesn't actually play their own game. At least not in the sense that it's meant to be played "hardcore". This is extremely evident in your balancing and nerfing. Nerfs often kill builds, this shouldn't be the case. And balancing seems to be quick, dirty, and over/under tuned.
On a side note, I don't even like playing summoners. But the smoke mine ability made the build, once snap shoting is gone the build will be all but dead.
I'll show you a gleaming example of this. Clearly whoever is making unique items does not understand the full potential of certain builds. Windripper is by far the best elemental bow in the game, infact the DPS one can achieve is similar if not surpassing that of a PERFECT mirrored bow. On top of that it has added rarity and quantity stats. How exactly does this slip past those designing uniques? they clearly don't understand elemental builds very well. The second I saw that bow, I knew ppl would be running around with 30k+ potential split arrow.
I do enjoy items that inspire builds, build design is the only reason I play the game. But if your intentions is to keep uniques on a lower tier than rares, you really fucked up with that bow. And it was glaringly obvious. Not to mention split arrow and bow builds have the most efficient and quickest clear speed in the game, by a decent margin.
Meanwhile you continue nerfing builds based around whatever the flavor of the month is. Take a different approach, this method kills player retention. If you make a league that pigeon holes people, you should expect to see one build rise to the top. Experiment with one week races, nerf between leagues, and make sure you REALLY understand the psychology of hardcore, before you add a bunch of one shot boss's and kill your league.
This. Please. GGG. FUCKING READ THIS 1000 MORE TIMES NOW.
1000 times this!
"
777isHARDCORE wrote:
While I disagree with the rest of his post, this:
"
Dellusions wrote:
...we've been telling you for over a year about stupid shit like the "your buddy logged in/out" toast windows overlapping the loot delve windows and you don't do a thing about it.
is for real.
The game is in full release. This still being there now, after the first mini-expansion, is almost beyond sloppy.
100,000 times this!
+1!
Ans no adressing of Leech, no mentioning of Elemental Hit, and just giving Groundslammer nicer Look { what i dont like btw) will not cure what you did to them with 1.1 patch!
there is something I dont get at all, why to buff so much poison arrow when you have viper strike being pretty pretty bad atm
summoner nerf... damn I was playing that
useless dying shit
exiles using vaal skills, that can be dangerous man
"
BldSwtTrs wrote:
When I read patch notes these days, more often than not it seems as though GGG doesn't actually play their own game. At least not in the sense that it's meant to be played "hardcore". This is extremely evident in your balancing and nerfing. Nerfs often kill builds, this shouldn't be the case. And balancing seems to be quick, dirty, and over/under tuned.
On a side note, I don't even like playing summoners. But the smoke mine ability made the build, once snap shoting is gone the build will be all but dead.
RIP summoners, PA is finally viable (after how many patches when they "buffed it"?), Arc buffed from absolute garbage to mediocre(?). Bretty good so far, might even level something that uses PA.
