[HLD] Clever Construction

This feels a little too powerful in PvP atm. A trapper can throw traps all over the place which you cant see and also cant damage for 5 seconds. They can force you into a corner and throw traps at your feet until your dead and you have no way of clearing their traps because traps can not be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown.

It seems like there should be a down side like traps can not be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown and also can not detonate for 5 seconds. On smaller maps a trapper can just throw traps all the way from their side of the map to yours back you into a corner and kill you. Theres no way for you to avoid their damage unless you kill them at range before they get to you. This makes trappers really weak against ranged characters and really strong against melee. Maybe we can give trappers something that helps them with ranged characters while making clever construction easier to deal with as a melee character.

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This feels a little too powerful in PvP atm. A trapper can throw traps all over the place which you cant see and also cant damage for 5 seconds. They can force you into a corner and throw traps at your feet until your dead and you have no way of clearing their traps because traps can not be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown.

It seems like there should be a down side like traps can not be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown and also can not detonate for 5 seconds. On smaller maps a trapper can just throw traps all the way from their side of the map to yours back you into a corner and kill you. Theres no way for you to avoid their damage unless you kill them at range before they get to you. This makes trappers really weak against ranged characters and really strong against melee. Maybe we can give trappers something that helps them with ranged characters while making clever construction easier to deal with as a melee character.

Yet, I see you've found no problem with clawing your way to the top.

1). Traps would be pointless if you could see them. You can already see them being thrown if you get within sight of the trapper. Even the faintest indication can be picked up.

2). Once you know you're facing a trapper, you can counteract them. Same thing as Poison Arrow. Same thing as freeze-lockers or stun-lockers.

3). Use a mobility skill to get out of the corner. Don't have room in your setup? Make room. Several HLDers have item swaps for hazards I listed in #2, and have gem swaps to optimize DPS/change AOE/change damage sources (Penetration vs some other gem, example). I don't see how introducing a mobility skill is any different. I swap links on my Mirror/Blink Arrows to optimize confusion tactics against single-target and melee.

4). You seriously overestimate the power of "traps cannot be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown". Firstly, PvPers start out at a distance from each other. A trapper typically lays their traps immediately to control areas of the map. Just wait for a moment (once you know you're fighting a trapper), then use an AOE on likely trap locations. Or use summons (totems, zombies, skeletons).

Secondly, it is entirely possible to destroy traps when trappers attempt to lure you into them by using mobility skills on them. A trapper lays down traps, then runs around enticingly, maybe taking potshots at you. Instead of leaping straight at the trapper, give it a few seconds so you can destroy some of the traps with an attack, then Leap Slam or Lightning Warp at the attacker. The damage you receive is immediately diminished. If you're not tanky enough, that's a build problem.

5). Your 'downside' to Clever Construction makes it useless in PvE and PvP alike. Traps that can't attack have no function, and traps that are vulnerable can be destroyed and deal no damage as a result. Keep in mind that a trapper only has so many traps. 6 (with nodes and 9 with multitrap gem) on the field, and 3 in the inventory. Even then, it takes up to 20 seconds to achieve full deployment. At least totem users can resummon totems easily and get a single attack in as the totem is destroyed. Once a trapper runs empty, he has to waste the opponent's time for several seconds before getting to use ONE more attack.

6). Traps can also work against ranged when ranged has to reposition for attacking. Of course, people are rarely pure-trappers, they usually have an auxiliary ranged attack to supplement the traps. So really, traps are just a bonus for ranged characters.

7). I agree with what you're saying about certain melee characters. Trappers can be highly effective against melee if they can survive the melee assault long enough to hit with the three traps they're holding, or if they can lure the melee into a pile of six traps. Short of rapidly killing the trapper (which is very easily possible), melee is guaranteed to take at least a hit or two.

But wait. What's that I'm saying? "Melee is guaranteed to take at least a hit or two". Should trappers be able to hit their enemies at all? Should traps be powerful enough to kill in two or three hits?

Well, of course trappers need to be able to hit their enemies. Nobody wants to miss. Spellcasters, ranged, melee alike. And of course traps should be powerful, since trappers can only get three ready at a time, and they can only have so many out at a time. Every other character can attack as many times as they like, whenever they want.

It's true that traps have their advantages, like being able to attack without fear of counterattack (except for throwing traps at one's own feet right as the melee bumrushes), and being able to attack multiple times at once (Stacking traps).

However, these advantages are equally weighted with the disadvantages of only having so many attacks ready to go at a time, and the possibility of being counteracted by a smart player who uses mobility skills or other trap-clearing measures.

In addition, trappers are at a CLEAR disadvantage against people who have superb area-control. Trapping is, at best, a supplementary tactic. You add it to your ranged, or you stack it with totems. Let's say a totem user fights a trapper. They can summon their totems on top of traps at a distance, disarming the trap. Simultaneously, the totem controls an area that the trapper cannot easily regain. Totems can be immediately resummoned, while traps take time to replenish.

As for poison arrow or other lingering AOEs, well, they can't be attacked. unlike totems, and they control areas just as effectively. Poison Arrow, in particular, can have huge AOE, can't be attacked, and deals DoT of a resistance that people seldom have in PvP. The HLDers only recourse is to get Ming's Heart or to otherwise have Chaos resistance setup in their other gear. But even that comes with downsides of eating up other suffixes, or a reduction of 15% HP/ES and the loss of a ring slot.

So yeah, food for thought before you suggest anything about "balancing" for traps. In fact, I find them somewhat underpowered, but maybe that's just my bias as a trapper whenever I fight really OP melee tanks that flicker one-shot me, or people with amazing area-control and annoying DoTs. That's a problem with the ranged component of my trapping build, rather than any flaw with traps themselves.

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Epee wrote:

Yet, I see you've found no problem with clawing your way to the top.

This has nothing to do with what I wrote and only serves to act as an antagonizing comment.

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Epee wrote:

1). Traps would be pointless if you could see them. You can already see them being thrown if you get within sight of the trapper. Even the faintest indication can be picked up.

Not once did I say traps should be visible I just listed being invisible as one of their many strengths.

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Epee wrote:

2). Once you know you're facing a trapper, you can counteract them. Same thing as Poison Arrow. Same thing as freeze-lockers or stun-lockers.

As a 2h melee character once I realize I am facing a trapper how do I counteract them? Please explain in detail.

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Epee wrote:

3). Use a mobility skill to get out of the corner. Don't have room in your setup? Make room. Several HLDers have item swaps for hazards I listed in #2, and have gem swaps to optimize DPS/change AOE/change damage sources (Penetration vs some other gem, example). I don't see how introducing a mobility skill is any different. I swap links on my Mirror/Blink Arrows to optimize confusion tactics against single-target and melee.

Do you really think someone can hit top 10 in the ladder and wouldnt consider using a movement skill vs trappers?

Just for arguments sake please detail how a 2h character who can only use leap slam to move can easily maneuver their way out of a corner when a trapper has traps surrounding them and is also throwing traps at your feet that you cant stop because of Clever Construction

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Epee wrote:

4). You seriously overestimate the power of "traps cannot be damaged for 5 seconds after being thrown". Firstly, PvPers start out at a distance from each other. A trapper typically lays their traps immediately to control areas of the map. Just wait for a moment (once you know you're fighting a trapper), then use an AOE on likely trap locations. Or use summons (totems, zombies, skeletons).

You do know trappers can throw traps at you while your trying to clear an invisible trap on the ground that you may or may not be in range to hit right? You cant just sit around and think out the situation you have to move constantly or youll get hit with a trap (even apamming molten strike non stop wont save you because the trap cant be damaged trappers can hit you all day long and you cant stop them if you run youll run into a trap) trying to remember where all the traps are is like trying to figure out which skill a bow character just used blink or mirror arrow. Its easy to say "just remember where the traps are" but in reality when theres so many other things going on its not easy at all. Summons can be killed easily, refills the trappers pots can grant charges and are easy to leech life from and if your not a summoner your cast speed is to even get these guys up is extremely slow.

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Epee wrote:

Secondly, it is entirely possible to destroy traps when trappers attempt to lure you into them by using mobility skills on them. A trapper lays down traps, then runs around enticingly, maybe taking potshots at you. Instead of leaping straight at the trapper, give it a few seconds so you can destroy some of the traps with an attack, then Leap Slam or Lightning Warp at the attacker. The damage you receive is immediately diminished. If you're not tanky enough, that's a build problem.

How does one destroy traps with leap slam without taking full damage from the trap? How do you ignore the trapper and target the traps without giving the trapper a perfect opportunity to get free hits on you.

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Epee wrote:

5). Your 'downside' to Clever Construction makes it useless in PvE and PvP alike. Traps that can't attack have no function, and traps that are vulnerable can be destroyed and deal no damage as a result. Keep in mind that a trapper only has so many traps. 6 (with nodes and 9 with multitrap gem) on the field, and 3 in the inventory. Even then, it takes up to 20 seconds to achieve full deployment. At least totem users can resummon totems easily and get a single attack in as the totem is destroyed. Once a trapper runs empty, he has to waste the opponent's time for several seconds before getting to use ONE more attack.

My suggestion was merely an off the top of the head suggestion to get the discussion going I just threw the idea out there theres no real follow up to it so dont act like it was the premise of my topic. Also weve already seen changes can be made to skills that effect it in PvP and dont effect it in PvE

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Epee wrote:

6). Traps can also work against ranged when ranged has to reposition for attacking. Of course, people are rarely pure-trappers, they usually have an auxiliary ranged attack to supplement the traps. So really, traps are just a bonus for ranged characters.

No you are 100% wrong there are plenty of trap only characters that use spells and curses to supplement their traps. They are trappers first and vs a melee character theres no reason for a trapper to be out of position melee has to close the distance to fight not the other way around. All a trapper really has to do is get 1 point up on a melee character and then they can camp and you either have to get through there traps to get to them or youll get the loss. Theres no way for melee to make a trapper move unless your chasing them.

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Epee wrote:

7). I agree with what you're saying about certain melee characters. Trappers can be highly effective against melee if they can survive the melee assault long enough to hit with the three traps they're holding, or if they can lure the melee into a pile of six traps. Short of rapidly killing the trapper (which is very easily possible), melee is guaranteed to take at least a hit or two.

But wait. What's that I'm saying? "Melee is guaranteed to take at least a hit or two". Should trappers be able to hit their enemies at all? Should traps be powerful enough to kill in two or three hits?

Well, of course trappers need to be able to hit their enemies. Nobody wants to miss. Spellcasters, ranged, melee alike. And of course traps should be powerful, since trappers can only get three ready at a time, and they can only have so many out at a time. Every other character can attack as many times as they like, whenever they want.

It's true that traps have their advantages, like being able to attack without fear of counterattack (except for throwing traps at one's own feet right as the melee bumrushes), and being able to attack multiple times at once (Stacking traps).

However, these advantages are equally weighted with the disadvantages of only having so many attacks ready to go at a time, and the possibility of being counteracted by a smart player who uses mobility skills or other trap-clearing measures.

In addition, trappers are at a CLEAR disadvantage against people who have superb area-control. Trapping is, at best, a supplementary tactic. You add it to your ranged, or you stack it with totems. Let's say a totem user fights a trapper. They can summon their totems on top of traps at a distance, disarming the trap. Simultaneously, the totem controls an area that the trapper cannot easily regain. Totems can be immediately resummoned, while traps take time to replenish.

Again your wrong heres a video Best 2h melee character vs best trapper im sure they could play this match over and over again and not much would change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEwESK-jdqc

Not just clever construction...

Traps and mines in general are fucking OP, people just lay them and camp, as a melee you cant do anything... as you can see in the video, its the cheesiest fucking "tactic" ever...

Sorry but I disagree with you // traps and mines are just fine the way there are // traps got cooldown/mines can be placed in the same place where the player step


Melee can attack continuously and same as casters,

ppl who use traps/mines choose their path throw the passive tree to make it work as you did to make your build works I do not think its fair to destroy their builds


maybe you should first explain what is your skills and damage/crit chances/crit multi/items/tactics before posting something with plz this is OP GGG should nerf this I can't deal with it :)



before trapers/miners use block/spell block to avoid damages which is got nerfed.

however, I agree that bear trap is very strong in PVP and can easily 1/2 shoot other builds
Clever construction is the key that keep the availability of trapers builds remove it and remove the whole idea of trappers pvp

Regards,

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alshabibi7 wrote:

Sorry but I disagree with you // traps and mines are just fine the way there are // traps got cooldown/mines can be placed in the same place where the player step


Melee can attack continuously and same as casters,

ppl who use traps/mines choose their path throw the passive tree to make it work as you did to make your build works I do not think its fair to destroy their builds


maybe you should first explain what is your skills and damage/crit chances/crit multi/items/tactics before posting something with plz this is OP GGG should nerf this I can't deal with it :)

Please refrain from posting if you arnt going to read whats already been written in this thread. Ive very clearly stated the issue melee in general has with trappers and even suggested buffing trappers vs ranged to compensate making them a little less effective Vs melee. While I do not have an exact answer on how this could be accomplished I have started this thread to open up discussion on what could be done. If your not going to contribute to an intelligent discussion/debate then please leave.

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alshabibi7 wrote:

before trapers/miners use block/spell block to avoid damages which is got nerfed.

however, I agree that bear trap is very strong in PVP and can easily 1/2 shoot other builds
Clever construction is the key that keep the availability of trapers builds remove it and remove the whole idea of trappers pvp


Regards,

No one has ever said remove clever construction... this thread is to discuss clever construction and traps/mines in general in PvP. Traps have been a known issue in PvP long before 1.3 came out but people were waiting to discuss balance because of the changes that came in 1.3 now that its out everything needs to be reassessed. So far my experience has been that traps are too powerful vs melee. If you have proof that melee can reliably handle traps if played properly then by all means present it.

the same scenario is repeated every place ,, my melee two handed sword can't kill everyone in the arena/pvp matches ..... GGG please nerf anything I can't kill so I feel the game is balanced once I won against all builds with my high tier gears ...

Hey I'm new tthis game, what is 2h?

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alshabibi7 wrote:

Sorry but I disagree with you // traps and mines are just fine the way there are // traps got cooldown/mines can be placed in the same place where the player step


Melee can attack continuously and same as casters,

ppl who use traps/mines choose their path throw the passive tree to make it work as you did to make your build works I do not think its fair to destroy their builds


maybe you should first explain what is your skills and damage/crit chances/crit multi/items/tactics before posting something with plz this is OP GGG should nerf this I can't deal with it :)



before trapers/miners use block/spell block to avoid damages which is got nerfed.

however, I agree that bear trap is very strong in PVP and can easily 1/2 shoot other builds
Clever construction is the key that keep the availability of trapers builds remove it and remove the whole idea of trappers pvp

Regards,

ive been 1 shot at 10k life with fire trap, also been 1 shot by remote mine arc, please tell me more about how traps and mines are fine against melee chars, i have to go to them to attack while they just camp on their traps/mines and 1 shot me when i get near them.. with 10.100 fucking life.

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alshabibi7 wrote:

the same scenario is repeated every place ,, my melee two handed sword can't kill everyone in the arena/pvp matches ..... GGG please nerf anything I can't kill so I feel the game is balanced once I won against all builds with my high tier gears ...

This. ^^ "I'm too lazy to find any counters so please nerf everyone else's build but mine." lol