[R.I.P.] life Mjolner done right by Rico - Juggernaut version - R.I.P. thx to "balancing" policy

just testing and conc with wave of conviction seems far better overall

anyone else finding that ?

thanks in advance :)

Edit : actually Discharge / Elemental Focus / Inc AoE support for mapping and Conc Eff for bosses is bloody awesome too lol :)

Sure about pure Discharge beeing better?
I was looking into that as well, but with only 2 power charges generated per discharge vs 4 with double attack speed + arc, it doesn't seem to add up.
Theoretical peak DPS for sure, with Inya's and Jugger passives proccing left and right. But realistic average DPS?
It does give room for a good amount of additional increased damage though...

I'd love to switch back to pure discharge, but it better be better on average, not only with stars aligning.

Wave of conviction is interesting though, especially in my case playing with double mjolner. Added fire/controlled destruction, and it should really add to discharge DPS.

"

Nephalon wrote:

Sure about pure Discharge beeing better?
I was looking into that as well, but with only 2 power charges generated per discharge vs 4 with double attack speed + arc, it doesn't seem to add up.
Theoretical peak DPS for sure, with Inya's and Jugger passives proccing left and right. But realistic average DPS?
It does give room for a good amount of additional increased damage though...

I'd love to switch back to pure discharge, but it better be better on average, not only with stars aligning.

Wave of conviction is interesting though, especially in my case playing with double mjolner. Added fire/controlled destruction, and it should really add to discharge DPS.

Yes Im sure. Arc and double attack speed doesnt provide 4 power charges for each Discharge simply because romiras doesnt grant power charges per each skill hit but rather per each skill cast. Therefore with Arc and double cyclone APS you have: 1 power charge from last Discharge, 1 power charge from last Arc and 1 power charge from initial cyclone hit. So 3 in total not 4. With Discharge alone you will have 2 PCs in total.

When we add Inyas things get funny but all in all if u calculate all the mambo jumbo with Arc and Inyas and Jugg your effective number of maximum charges is about 68% while same thing but without Arc is about 58%. You can grab PoB calculated Discharge dmg and multiply them by those %. Arc was worth it before the nerf not because it provided slightly higher single target dps but rather great pack clearing mechanics. Now both things are gone.

have you tested wave of conviction+discharge? if you scale wave correctly to get the 25% pen its pretty good.

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RicoKGB wrote:

Yes Im sure. Arc and double attack speed doesnt provide 4 power charges for each Discharge simply because romiras doesnt grant power charges per each skill hit but rather per each skill cast. Therefore with Arc and double cyclone APS you have: 1 power charge from last Discharge, 1 power charge from last Arc and 1 power charge from initial cyclone hit. So 3 in total not 4. With Discharge alone you will have 2 PCs in total.

-previous discharge
-cyclone hit triggering arc
-arc
-cyclone hit triggering discharge

You cant have an initial cyclone hit for discharge and not have another one for arc.
Just tested ingame to be sure, and it did jump from 2 to 4 with only arc triggered.
Don't get me wrong i'm not here to contradict just because... all that matters is that you can get the best mjölner guide out there and every contribution helps.

I'll try and break the probabilities down statistically so we can get the average charges used/discharge, will take a bit of work though.

Pure discharge might still be better at all, just wanted to start with correct assumptions.

Provided in the end Discharge alone is better: what exactly do you mean by "no more than 3,75 APS". Do you mean one does not need more? Or do you mean one must not have more?

I also struggle in understanding to compare the following:
Discharge + 2 Supports with 0% CDR (as CDR belts are expensive af) and ~5,4 APS compared to Discharge + Arc/WoC + Support and ~5,4 APS. In both cases one stat is lacking (CDR or APS) - so which one of those two would be better in the end DPS-wise?

In addition as people tend to forget this: our attack speed is keeping us alive due to LGoH. So the faster we attack, the faster we "leech"... or am I wrong?

"

Saibaschbeis wrote:

Provided in the end Discharge alone is better: what exactly do you mean by "no more than 3,75 APS". Do you mean one does not need more? Or do you mean one must not have more?

I also struggle in understanding to compare the following:
Discharge + 2 Supports with 0% CDR (as CDR belts are expensive af) and ~5,4 APS compared to Discharge + Arc/WoC + Support and ~5,4 APS. In both cases one stat is lacking (CDR or APS) - so which one of those two would be better in the end DPS-wise?

In addition as people tend to forget this: our attack speed is keeping us alive due to LGoH. So the faster we attack, the faster we "leech"... or am I wrong?

One you go over that speed you are trying to proc spell at faster rate than the cooldown is resetting. You can actually lose number of spell triggers because the cyclone hits are coinciding with the cooldown. You can think of it as going out of sync with the ooldown if you attack too fast. On the other hand too slow and you proc fewer spells anyway. Iirc there's a link in the big ice nova COC guide on shadow subforum with detailed mechanics.

I'd like to know if anyone tested shock nova.

"

Saibaschbeis wrote:

Provided in the end Discharge alone is better: what exactly do you mean by "no more than 3,75 APS". Do you mean one does not need more? Or do you mean one must not have more?

I also struggle in understanding to compare the following:
Discharge + 2 Supports with 0% CDR (as CDR belts are expensive af) and ~5,4 APS compared to Discharge + Arc/WoC + Support and ~5,4 APS. In both cases one stat is lacking (CDR or APS) - so which one of those two would be better in the end DPS-wise?

In addition as people tend to forget this: our attack speed is keeping us alive due to LGoH. So the faster we attack, the faster we "leech"... or am I wrong?

I can answer you that, correct me if i'm wrong Rico.

It is must not have more.

If you have more, the next cyclone hit connects before the discharge CD is finished, so you have to wait for the next hit to trigger it again.

In your second case ALL APS beyond 3 is completely wasted, as the extra hits always connect while discharge is on cooldown and you have no other spell to make any use of the hit.
It's an effective APS of 2,7 if you use only discharge.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. In the end I think it really depends on how much more ADPS Discharge-only would be (as in percentage) and if this is enough to justify the actual loss of QoL due to lower attack speed (not to forget faster movement speed as well, from Onslaught).

Factoring in Inyas, the avarage amount of power charges/discharge generated in the low APS variant is 2,94.
Or: 5/16 possible events end up with 5 power charges, 11/16 with 2.

But whatever, avarage counts for DPS.

Of these 16 events, wwe will end up with 7 endurance charges 4 times, 5 endurance charges 3,75 times, and 2 endurance charges 8.25 times.Avarage Endurance charges used is 3,95

So each Discharge, 2,94 power charges and 3,95 endurance charges are used.
(This is pure discharge low APS)

What i was not taking into account were power charges generated by additional hits (blade vortex?), power charges lost due to critical hits, endurance charges gained for beeing hit or beeing hit recently.
Though all of these DO play a role, they are events that affect both variants, only account for a small percentage of overall charges, and can be ignored for a rough comparison.

Going from 6/s to 7,5/s is a multiplier of 1,25.
So to compare it better, so lets just up these values by this factor to compare them to the double APS, discharge/arc variant.

Normalized to 6 discharges/s, the values would be:
3,68 power charges,
4,94 endurance charges.

Lets say the additional support and the damage one might instead get from arc cancel each other out.

Avarage power charges in the high APS variant are around 4,3/discharge (from 2,94), while average Endurance charges are at roughly 5,6/discharge (from 3,95)

If both variants are normalized to dc/s, we are looking at a gain of 15% spell DPS for an absolutely massive investment in attack speed. (3,75->6)

in my opinion its not wort trying, pure discharge wins.
As Rico predicted, but now i have some math to back it up as well :P.


TLDR:
Napkin math says pure discharge is stronger, due to opportunity cost to reach 6 APS beeing way too high.


Regarding wave of conviction:
It's way too strong to pass over it for stronger foes. But wave, added fire support, cwdt do that job just fine, no need to trigger it with mjölner.