Damage Over Time Changes - Part 1

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KnyazSunny wrote:

Right now we have a complicated system (e.g some modifiers double dip, others do not. Takes a bit of research to figure things out when you are new to the game).

If I understand these changes correctly, the complexity shoots up further. Now, modifiers will be even more selective, often in non-intuitive ways (e.g fire damage still double dips. But now, something like attack damage will do nothing for bleed base damage.)

I do not understand this. Things like attack damage effecting the base were never an issue. The issue is solely with double dipping modifiers. I would have thought it would be smarter to just prevent double dipping stats from applying to the dot (e.g inc physical damage, inc fire damage), while still allowing dot modifiers to apply directly to the dot (e.g increased damage over time, increased physical damage over time etc). This game is always unnecessarily complicated.

This. Complicated system is a double edged sword. On one hand you have deep customization, on the other hand it's hard to understand, it's prone to bugs (like double dipping) and affecting system performance. I used to think that then only thing that affected secondary effects was secondary effect stats like: inc burning, inc poison, inc bleed and inc dot. I was surprised that it was not the case considering, that your base dot damage is already affected by initial hit that is scaled by other passives. DOT's should only be affected by dot passives, because otherwise it's just a nerf to double dipping, not a fix.

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laminarija wrote:

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KnyazSunny wrote:

Right now we have a complicated system (e.g some modifiers double dip, others do not. Takes a bit of research to figure things out when you are new to the game).

If I understand these changes correctly, the complexity shoots up further. Now, modifiers will be even more selective, often in non-intuitive ways (e.g fire damage still double dips. But now, something like attack damage will do nothing for bleed base damage.)

I do not understand this. Things like attack damage effecting the base were never an issue. The issue is solely with double dipping modifiers. I would have thought it would be smarter to just prevent double dipping stats from applying to the dot (e.g inc physical damage, inc fire damage), while still allowing dot modifiers to apply directly to the dot (e.g increased damage over time, increased physical damage over time etc). This game is always unnecessarily complicated.

This. Complicated system is a double edged sword. On one hand you have deep customization, on the other hand it's hard to understand, it's prone to bugs (like double dipping) and affecting system performance. I used to think that then only thing that affected secondary effects was secondary effect stats like: inc burning, inc poison, inc bleed and inc dot. I was surprised that it was not the case considering, that your base dot damage is already affected by initial hit that is scaled by other passives. DOT's should only be affected by dot passives, because otherwise it's just a nerf to double dipping, not a fix.

This is not a "nerf" to double dipping, this is an outright REMOVAL of double dipping (except with herald of ash, hopefully they do something about this). The sad thing is that if they don't let attack/spell damage effect ignite/bleed/poison, very few builds will find it worth it to use these mechanics. On top of this, poison is going to be in a REALLY bad spot if they don't let physical damage effect it when its from a physical source (and other damage types effect burn if its from hrimburn/three dragons/elementalist).

Wouldn't it make ignite really pitiful with crit builds?

Emberwake? More like EmberWOKE.

1. Can we now poison and chill all Guardians? I like the overall damage nerf a lot, but this means we are actually allowed to use those mechanics in endgame right? Really wanna do another Dyadus caster build and last one was a pain vs. Shaper and Guardians because of chill immunity.

2. With the skill effect/curse effectiveness reduction on some endgame bosses, I feel that I already have to invest quite a bit to do really OP poison damage. Are you going to reduce the damage output for stat-stacking elemental builds like sprinkler or HoWA, that seem even stronger right now?

3. Thank you for adding persistent spectres <3

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KnyazSunny wrote:

Right now we have a complicated system (e.g some modifiers double dip, others do not. Takes a bit of research to figure things out when you are new to the game).

It does take research but it isn't complicated. Lot's of things in the game require research to be known to the player. It is also much more intuitive to the player how much damage they can expect to do with a given dot because the multiplication is much simpler.

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If I understand these changes correctly, the complexity shoots up further. Now, modifiers will be even more selective, often in non-intuitive ways (e.g fire damage still double dips. But now, something like attack damage will do nothing for bleed base damage.)

No more complex, just different.

The new TL:DR; is "the base dot damage is a percentage of the base ability damage before multipliers". Following that, you simply need to know which multipliers affect the given dot (in the same fashion that you need to know which multipliers affect a given spell or attack).

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I do not understand this. Things like attack damage effecting the base were never an issue. The issue is solely with double dipping modifiers. I would have thought it would be smarter to just prevent double dipping stats from applying to the dot (e.g inc physical damage, inc fire damage), while still allowing dot modifiers to apply directly to the dot (e.g increased damage over time, increased physical damage over time etc). This game is always unnecessarily complicated.

They might not have been an issue but they also are not intrinsically important to the dot. It is now extremely simply to work out what your damage is going to be.

You have an ability that does damage and applies a dot.

The ability does (base damage * ability multipliers)
The dot does (base damage * base dot multiplier * dot multipliers)

It's that simple.

Let go of the "it's different, so it's more complex" mode of thinking, and you'll be just fine. It's not more complex, it's actually a lot more simple. It requires you to know which multipliers affect the direct damage and which apply to the dot damage, but it always did.

On the plus side, you can now work out the dot damage without considering the ability damage at all, and the damage each portion does is more intuitive (most people aren't using to comparing numbers and thinking about the likely result quadratically, which is what double dipping requires).

How will these changes affect RF (if at all)?

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Ius wrote:

How will these changes affect RF (if at all)?

Unless they nerf righteous fire to compensate, the change to increased burning damage means righteous fire is getting a strait up buff.

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Pathological wrote:

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I do not understand this. Things like attack damage effecting the base were never an issue. The issue is solely with double dipping modifiers. I would have thought it would be smarter to just prevent double dipping stats from applying to the dot (e.g inc physical damage, inc fire damage), while still allowing dot modifiers to apply directly to the dot (e.g increased damage over time, increased physical damage over time etc). This game is always unnecessarily complicated.

They might not have been an issue but they also are not intrinsically important to the dot. It is now extremely simply to work out what your damage is going to be.

You have an ability that does damage and applies a dot.

The ability does (base damage * ability multipliers)
The dot does (base damage * base dot multiplier * dot multipliers)

It's that simple.

Let go of the "it's different, so it's more complex" mode of thinking, and you'll be just fine. It's not more complex, it's actually a lot more simple. It requires you to know which multipliers affect the direct damage and which apply to the dot damage, but it always did.

On the plus side, you can now work out the dot damage without considering the ability damage at all, and the damage each portion does is more intuitive (most people aren't using to comparing numbers and thinking about the likely result quadratically, which is what double dipping requires).

It is more complex, to a serious stupidity level. Example, spell damage that increases your physical spell damage will no longer effect things like poison and bleed. Now wait, seriously a spell base that does physical damage loses its damage benefit for those ailments from any spell damage mod. Seriously stupid on so many levels. They should have just made them completely seperate mechanics all together, though then it just wouldn't make any common sense. Also because of this skills that get their damage mostly from wands and daggers will lose a shit ton of damage towards those ailments also, essentially making it pointless for spells in general.

Can the ignite caused by a fire skill be supported by a gem, (ex. Inc Burning damage)?