Kay's Summoner Memorial Page | New Guide is linked inside!

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wallypoe wrote:

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ShmooDude wrote:

Roughly the same for bosses but crit better for mapping. Enough better for the cost? Maybe not.

P.S. @wallypoe can you pastebin your build you were doing the testing on, the numbers seem really off to me and I wonder if the rest of your tree is different enough to make the aura build better.

I create a dummy build with both Critial & lightning cluster
Feel free to mix & match to see the dps.
https://pastebin.com/k63p8bTW

Remember the shocked is count twice so make sure put only put half number
for example, lv 20 skitterbot is 22% increase, base damaged taken is 15%, so 15*1.22=18.3, so you put 9
for 2 overshcok, it's increase another 60%, so 15*1.82=27.3, so you put 13

So basically, you're ignoring renewal because you don't have "are your minions always on full life" checked. This basically makes it a dead node and is where most of the discrepancy came from.

Elemental Equilibrium was not being used (not talented and "Enemy was Hit by Fire Damage" setting).

Likewise, you were also not simulating bosses (boss setting at no). I usually go with Sirus. The resistances gained are cancelled out by EE above but there's still less curse effectiveness (66% Sirus/Shaper/Elder, 33% regular bosses)

I also turned on Deathmark and Frenzy charges although I expect those to be equal for each build.

I did not add feeding frenzy though I don't expect it'd matter in terms of comparing the two builds. Power Charge on Crit and Assassin's mark were both strictly worse in all situations and not used.

0.978m - 2x crit/renew large / 4x crit medium - Minions NOT Full life
1.011m - 2x crit/renew large / 4x first among equals medium - Minions NOT Full life
1.017m - 2x overshock large / 4x first among equals medium - extra nodes not spent on damage
1.166m - 2x crit/renew large / 4x crit medium - Minions Full life
1.205m - 2x crit/renew large / 4x first among equals medium - Minions Full life
1.221m - 2x overshock large / 4x first among equals medium - +38% Minion Damage with saved nodes
1.273m - 2x overshock large / 4x first among equals medium - full Enduring Bond wheel with saved nodes

In either case, while bossing First Among Equals is better than Precise Commander due to lack of power charges. Precise wins with power charges for the crit build (not listed).

Lightning large wins for bossing if you spend your 4 saved nodes on extra Minion Damage nodes in the main passive tree. This didn't really work on my Delirium character because it has a 240% Minion Damage Elegant Hubris and so extra Minion Damage wasn't worth as much. However without that, the extra Minion Damage really helps the lightning cluster build because it's missing about 60% from the minion cluster (Feasting Fiends plus 2 10% fillers).

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brndl15 wrote:

Anyone know how to add spectres to PoB, and where ALL relevant info is obtained?

It's datamined directly from Path of Exile's files. I wrote instructions on how to add spectres here:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2181275/page/1132#p23256026

If you do so, you'll lose anything you add if you update.

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ShmooDude wrote:

Lightning large wins for bossing if you spend your 4 saved nodes on extra Minion Damage nodes in the main passive tree. This didn't really work on my Delirium character because it has a 240% Minion Damage Elegant Hubris and so extra Minion Damage wasn't worth as much. However without that, the extra Minion Damage really helps the lightning cluster build because it's missing about 60% from the minion cluster (Feasting Fiends plus 2 10% fillers).

oh good point on "minion always full life", I miss that one, that was a big mistake.

I didn't put EE/Deathmark/Freezy in because they adding same % on both

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turko wrote:

Just to be sure. My skitterbots are showing 82% shock effectiveness, so I should use 41% on POB?

15% base shock x 1.82 (82 effectiveness). Then divide by 2 because POB is adding shock twice.

So put in 14%.

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ShmooDude wrote:

Lightning large wins for bossing if you spend your 4 saved nodes on extra Minion Damage nodes in the main passive tree.

Did you try 6-passive medium and allocate extra points to the small passives?

6% increased aura effect is stronger than 10% minion damage for cold spectres because hatred has 'double dip' (gain + more).

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brndl15 wrote:

I agree, and that part was pretty easy. I think that part works too. I tried to add Baranite Preachers, and got the spectre file updated. It's crashing on the skills file though. For that, I added this info:


I appreciate the help though.

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brndl15 wrote:

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adeleax wrote:

Or maybe you just need to add

baseEffectiveness = 1

Somewhere in your skill definition. What the actual value should be, I have no idea - but it should at least stop PoB crashing.

Maybe take the actual values for the regular BallLightning, from act_int.lua, line 494 onwards.

Yes, adding
baseEffectiveness = 0.85000002384186,
incrementalEffectiveness = 0.035999998450279,

Spoiler

before the skill description prevented the crash. Good idea to pull the numbers from the act_int.lua. I had looked thru the rest of the spectre skills, but it appears that no ball lightning using spectres are in pob anywhere, so I was at a loss from where to copy. While that works though, it doesn't seem to give reasonable damage numbers.

With my current char, a single slave driver shows almost 926k dps with lightning surge. With the above for ball lightning on the preacher, a single preacher, with no other changes, is showing 79k dps. Since both are lightning spells, the supports and auras should I would think provide similar levels, so I can't believe the Preacher is less than 10% the dps of a slave driver. I've used them, and I know they can kill things.

I suspect it has more to do with the mechanics of ball lightning, and the fact that the damge from that spell comes from multiple hits if I understand it right. Somewhere in this skill setup there must be more configuration/info required for how BL actually hits. I haven't used the regular skill either before, so not used to seeing how PoB treats it. I'll poke around some more. Thanks for the assist, if you have any other ideas, I'm open to suggestion.

Ball Lightning doesn't calculate in POB because it only calculates 1 hit. Try with dedicated BL build, DPS value is really low in POB. But BL can hit many times per second. I think it's about 10, so x10 to get a real idea.

I've used BP against Sirus and they can delete A8 no problem. But hard to use because BL is slow moving, so need to convocation a lot. Sometimes I did deathless, sometimes I bricked Sirus :(


For your stat in POB, use this:

baseEffectiveness = 0.4125,
incrementalEffectiveness = 0.045,

levels = {
[1] = { 0.5, 1.5, -25, damageEffectiveness = 1, critChance = 32, statInterpolation = { 3, 3, 1, }, },
},

Minion skill and player skill are completely different, so don't take player skill stats. You can get the stats from the spreadsheet (link on reddit somewhere) or datamine with pypoe.


I use datamine method because spreadsheet is new. It's a bit complicated to datamine though. You need to look at grantedeffects, grantedeffectperlevel, stats. Then look at statskey1 and statskey2 line to understand which value matches stats.


This is the full stat for AtlasCrusaderJudgeBallLightning



After FALSE [] is 0.4125 0.045

0.4125 = baseeffectiveness
0.045 = incrementaleffectiveness

After some more FALSE you can see 1600. This is cast time x100, so 1.6 casttime.




[1478, 1479, 175]
[499]

are stats properties.




[0, 0, 2] is stat interpolation for [1478, 1479, 175]. value after is 1, 2, -25. So -25 is for stat 175 (base projectile speed)

The 0 0 mean look another place. So actually you can see 0.5, 1.5 after [1478, 1479, 175], so 0.5 is for 1478 and 1.5 is for 1479.

3200 is the critical strike value x 100. so it's 32% crit chance!

The 0 before -27 is the damage multiplier x 100. The value is 0, so it's 100 (0 = no change).

Redemption Sentry has -2500, so it's -25, so 100 -25 = 75. That's why calc has RS with 75% damage effectiveness.

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brndl15 wrote:

Spoiler

I have been following this guide and thread for a while, and I've been spending a bunch of time today using PoB and looking at ways to migrate my current base build to pure spectres, and I noticed something that looks strange to me. Hoping someone can explain.

When comparing my own pob to Kay's pure spectre pob, I see my dmg is about 25% of hers... no big deal, I know i'm not there with gear, etc. But I started to examine the details of the calculations to see where to make things up, and I noticed a huge discrepency in the MH total More% calculation between redemption sentry, and slave drivers. I'm currently using Scale of Esh, but since they're not in PoB, and looks like same spell and slave drivers, I figure close enough.

Anyway, when selecting Default attack for the RS, the MH Total More is boosted by 200%. There is no similar increase in default on the slave driver. Maybe default attacks really do get this boost, and spells do not, I don't understand the game mechanics that well to be sure. What I do know is, importing my character changing spectre to RS from SD in PoB, before I even got done changing the supports, and with only wrath and zealotry enabled, RS had more DPS than slave driver. This seems like it shouldn't be, or RS are CLEARLY superior damage, and all anyone should be using.

Using the info in Kay's FAQ about adding Redemption Knights to PoB, it seems this line
[4] = { 75, 200, 25, baseMultiplier = 0.75, levelRequirement = 84, statInterpolation = { 1, 2, 1, }, },
Is what is adding the 200% multiplier. At spectre lvl 81, I had a 191% multiplier, and it went up 3% per lvl.

Where does this information come from, and how come other spectres don't have the same increase with level?

Spoiler

On a similar topic, when using PoB with spectres, how do I know which attack to use for real damage? For RS, default attack is highest dmg, and as default, probably has no cooldown, so dmg x aps = dps makes sense. For SD using lightning surge, can they really cast that at their cast per sec? Do they even use a default attack? How does one determine what to look at?

Thanks for the help, this stuff is complicated!

Some monsters have abilities that scale per level. It's for attack. Spell don't have this.

[1] = { 75, , 1, baseMultiplier = 0.75, levelRequirement = 1, statInterpolation = { 1, 2, }, },
[2] = { 75, , 1, baseMultiplier = 0.75, levelRequirement = 19, statInterpolation = { 1, 2, }, },
[3] = { 75, 1, 1, baseMultiplier = 0.75, levelRequirement = 20, statInterpolation = { 1, 2, }, },
[4] = { 75, 200, 1, baseMultiplier = 0.75, levelRequirement = 84, statInterpolation = { 1, 2, }, },

Level 1 to 19 = 0 scaling.
Level 20 to 84 = 1 - 200% scaling.

It's about 3% per level.

It comes from datamine. This is Redemption Sentry, so you can compare to official RS stats in POB:





If you can understand this, it's easy to add spectres to POB! :P

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kayella wrote:

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ShmooDude wrote:

Lightning large wins for bossing if you spend your 4 saved nodes on extra Minion Damage nodes in the main passive tree.

Did you try 6-passive medium and allocate extra points to the small passives?

6% increased aura effect is stronger than 10% minion damage for cold spectres because hatred has 'double dip' (gain + more).

hmmmm...
seems like the 6% increase aura effect is less than 10% minion damage from POB
6% aura effect +1.6% total dps
10% damage +2.7% total dps

is your pob showing opposite way?

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kayella wrote:

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RikoTran wrote:

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grootoo wrote:

Heya, newb question here, what is the point of using animate guardian? What about golem instead?

Please read carefully again whole guide page 1.

You can see further in the gear notes for Animate Guardian, especially the benefit of Kingmaker.

I theorycrafted a new setup for AG.

Overall:
Lose: blind aura, lose culling strike, lose crit multi.
Gain: AG life recovery on ignite/hit, -10% all ele res (10% more damage).

Much cheaper than Kingmaker.

Same regen as Kingmaker AG: stitched demon + ES craft.

Lose blind aura. Gain consecrated ground effect.
Shield converts ground effect to profane ground -> -10% all ele res.

Sword recovers 1% life when melee hit ignites, 25% chance to ignite (higher chance if you use raze and pillage)

Kay, I have been running your AG theoretical setup as described above, and so far so good. The consecrated ground seems pretty small, but I'm thinking the only time it matters is when he's sitting on a boss anyways.

Also, I've been pure spectre for a while; however- I just switched to double cluster overshock tree and I lost around 500 life (still at 6700) but gained around 1.5 million dps per spectre, if my POB calcs are correct. Pretty nuts. I know you are working on the pure spectre cluster section of your guide, so here's my current POB if you want to take a look: https://pastebin.com/6t4acz7u

Hey - once again, thanks for the awesome build!

How do we proc Elemental Equilibrium with the Spectre & Spide build?

Thanks!

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akaelbenpfeil wrote:

a question

a minion wand+ " triggered" affix ist extreme expensive at the moment.

does the build also work with " pledge of hands" unique staff ?

I retired PoH build because it's squishy (no shield, no trigger).

It will work for any spell spectre for example slave driver or scale of Esh.

https://youtu.be/UivMAnAPuKM?t=270

This is minotaur kill with PoH. Go to 4:30. It's using 3.9 build guide, so no cluster jewels. Takes about 2s to kill mino.