Shared Mines and Sulphite Rebalance

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SPTX wrote:

player's demand : we don't want delve locked behind a grind
ggg's response : we'll make the grind harder but with bigger yields

You really don't get it.
People are asking for content alternative to maps and instead we get content that forces you to play maps.

You don´t get that they would have to rebalance the entire Delve rewards (tune down by alot!) if they remove the sulphit requirement. The amount of currency you could farm in delve within an hour is insane compaired to maps when they remove the need of sulphit!

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muzein wrote:

I think GGG is having an identity crisis with Delve.

Is Delve supposed to be another league mechanic which is tied into mapping, such as Abyssal Depths and Incursion temples? Or is it supposed to be an end-game alternative to mapping such as the Uber Labyrinth?


I get the impression the community wants delve to be an alternative to mapping. So when GGG comes out and says 'Hey, we're listening to the feedback and now you'll have to map even more to access Delve' I question if they listened to any feedback at all.


Let's look at Uber Lab:
- you need only to map enough to discover and complete the 6 dream trials in order to access Uber Lab.
- Access is account-wide and thus only needs to be unlocked once per league.
- You do not have to find an Offering to the Goddess on the character which will be running the lab.
- You can buy offerings from other players
- You don't need to map more to run more labs.

Delve access should work similar and have it truly be an alternative to mapping. GGG's upcoming changes make it sound like access to the mines will be tied behind Red Maps which aren't terribly sustainable... which is pretty much the death of Delve league to me. Maps are also quite expensive so even if you wanted to simply purchase maps in the same way a lab runner would purchase offerings; what you receive for the cost is terrible compared to the cost and reward for lab running.


Mapping used to be enjoyable for me. War of the Atlas changed that. It introduced new content gated behind mapping and now it's a chore I must perform in order to do the content I want to do. When I'm tired after a month of mapping, I simply quit the league and return 2-3 months later - And when I return, GGG throws me right back into the very thing I quit the game over (mapping fatigue). It's actually worse because not only do I START a league with mapping fatigue, but I also have to build up my atlas completion all over again which is pure cancer.


Delve: Something to briefly do after a TON of mapping.
-is that what the community is asking for, GGG?

Mapping has become more a problem than a solution to be honest. at legacy league, I was swimming in red maps, I had more than I could run at that time.

In the following leagues, map drops became overall more rare, with high yellow and especially red, becoming as rare as a good unique item. Sometimes I did run 10 maps in a row, without any upgrade in tier levels.

Right now, I don´t have to care, as I can delve and delve is equal to mapping. My white maps that I have, give me 60 sulphite on average and can be done in 5 minutes. Besides that, I have quarry that gives me 30 per run.

This allows me to run delves whenever I want, as the sulphite I gain, is equal to what I need.

If now in future, they truly increase sulphite costs, while nerfing low level map and quarry, then I will be locked out from league content, like at Incursion where my summoner could not clear fast enough.
I stopped that mess of a league after a week and it would be a real shame same happens with delve, as I love the mechanics, just like with bestiary.

League content should be there always and not be a once in 11 maps thing like Incursion.

To me it is a mystery, why GGG is listening so much to people on reddit. Many of them are real money traders, many of them play 24/7 or with bots, they shouldn´t be the audience you care about.

It´s us, the average Joe and Kate, people with family and limited time.

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Ygidua wrote:

To me it is a mystery, why GGG is listening so much to people on reddit. Many of them are real money traders, many of them play 24/7 or with bots, they shouldn´t be the audience you care about

See below man :/ Capitalism doesn't work like that. The imperative to make the most profit is only incidentally linked to making the best product. That's the reason monopolies are a bad thing, they decouple quality from profit.

Incentive has always been incidental.

GGG's preferred customer has deep pockets, and shallow everything else. And preferably they are on a mission to diminish anything that doesn't amount to "HYPE! GGG TAKE My FIRST BORN AND PAYCHECK!!" Or free advertising.

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Rake7 wrote:

You don´t get that they would have to rebalance the entire Delve rewards (tune down by alot!) if they remove the sulphit requirement.

Even if true, (which it isn't) it would simply be a matter of dialing back quantity.

Interesting how people don't understand that items in this game are a river and not (ironically) a mine.

It's an infinite river of lewt. It 100% does not matter what the upper drop rate is beyond access. It's exactly how like taking 10% of someone's last dollar is completely different from taking 10% from a billionaire.

The bottom is qualitatively different. There's a threshold beyond which more wealth has no practical meaning beyond what it costs others. (In this case literally nothing.)

Lewt production is a non zero sum game.

And it is production. It's not extraction. The items pop into existence BECAUSE you killed a mob. You're printing your own money with your clicks. Worrying about any sort of inflation here is accordingly insane.

By zero sum logic the very existence of high power characters would make the game unplayable economically for lower power players when the exact opposite is true. Hyper item inflation is why the whole concept of leveling uniques is even possible. Because essentially the poe universe is a post scarcity society for all practical purposes.

Being able to buy good items for 1c improves enjoyment, period. And the cheaper they are the better. The ONLY danger of hyper inflation here is to the sensation of economic hierarchy.

That's why filters are universally understood to be a good idea.

The problem with quantity has never been fictional inflation. The problem has been GGG in turn gutting everyone else's access in an effort to constrain them. Their drops were never the problem. GGG's belief that it was and their subsequent "solutions" are the problem.

The root issue, as always, is control. GGG wants all of it, and has all of it, and all we have are illusions. This place is a casino. The house always wins.

There would be literally no harm done if you could put a currency fountain in your hideout. (Or play offline, or mod, or play old versions, etc.) But see, the profits irl are the issue. The kind of people GGG want are greedy and materialistic even in non material contexts. And the real product, is the other customers. GGG is selling tools to whales to gloat for the krill.

They want the kind of people so ruled by greed they will pay what amounts to a monthly fee to keep an ever expanding bank of items so they can feel superior to all the krill that for whatever reason don't or can't do exactly as they do.

What GGG has done here is invent a pleasing river (content), and then setup shop selling jugs (stash tabs) to the people paranoid or greedy enough to feel the need to keep all the water (lewt) they touch.

Depending on where this goes, this may honestly be my last league. Which is exactly what GGG wants because I've already decided to never spend another dime, or profit them in any way as far as I can tell, so I'm exactly the kind of person they have a fiduciary duty (to tencent) to drive off.

So if you agree with anything I said, be advised, the game is unlikely to evolve in a direction you'll enjoy.

It seems to me like a lot of people are assuming there will be more sulphite grind after this patch rather than less, but it’s difficult to tell from the manifesto text. We just have to see how much they buff sulphite gain from maps vs how much the delve costs increase; right now, reacting like the map grind is increasing is just operating on pure speculation.

If they are increasing the map grind, that’s just nonsensical and the opposite of what everyone wanted.

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demon9675 wrote:

It seems to me like a lot of people are assuming there will be more sulphite grind after this patch rather than less, but it’s difficult to tell from the manifesto text. We just have to see how much they buff sulphite gain from maps vs how much the delve costs increase; right now, reacting like the map grind is increasing is just operating on pure speculation.

If they are increasing the map grind, that’s just nonsensical and the opposite of what everyone wanted.

Have the feeling the map grind will be the same as it is now, just with higher sulphite numbers..

sulphite should be tradeable, or sold by niko

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Innomen wrote:

GGG's preferred customer has deep pockets, and shallow everything else. And preferably they are on a mission to diminish anything that doesn't amount to "HYPE! GGG TAKE My FIRST BORN AND PAYCHECK!!" Or free advertising.

I am sorry, but the only think that seem shallow here is your understanding of the whole thing.

If GGG was to just listen to people, there would be no sulfite anymore pretty much.
And of course inflation in PoE IS a thing and a very delicate one, giving everything to players very easily would be disastrous for the longevity of the game ( big grinders - which are one of the primary target of GGG - would get bored and loose incentive to play very quickly, streamers would stream significantly less of the game and switch to another quickly - less advertising ).
On top of that, there would be less judgement involved for anything as there would be even less reason to not go for the strongest setups that were expensive before and it would hurt build diversity even more.
There would be barely any excitement seeing anything drop because everything would be worthless as everybody would have it already.

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Innomen wrote:

The root issue, as always, is control. GGG wants all of it

It seems like you want it all, not the other way around.

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Chris wrote:

We have been keeping a close eye on community feedback, and wanted to describe some changes that we are planning to address concerns. We expect to make these changes by the middle of next week.

Shared Azurite Mine

Our initial plan for the Azurite Mine was that you would have a separate one per character. This way you would get a unique Delve experience with each character you create, and could Delve at depths appropriate for that character's power level.

It's clear from feedback and retrospection that we were wrong with this decision, and that the ability to have multiple characters access the same Azurite Mine would be an overall improvement to Delve.

We are implementing a change where your deepest Mine is shared across all characters on your account. Mines on other characters will be lost. If you have some encounters/rewards in your other mines that you have been saving up, we recommend you run these over the weekend because they won't be available after we deploy this change.

Because the mine scales infinitely side-to-side, if you want to have a fresh Delve experience on a new character, just travel sideways off your current path and head downwards from there.

Note that we do not plan to share Sulphite between characters on your account. It is important that you are capable of earning the Sulphite on the character that needs to spend it.

Oh for fucks sake, WTH. Make this an option then or something, its freaking stupid maps are tied to account, now mines too? IT IS FREAKING NICE THEY ARE SEPERATE, DONT LET THE WHINY MORONS CHANGE THIS. Please do NOT do this, this is horrible idea, each character should have their own set of mine layouts.

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Chris wrote:

Sulphite Rebalance
In order to correct this, we are going to rebalance both Sulphite gain from higher-tier maps, and Sulphite costs in the mine. Higher-tier maps will grant significantly more Sulphite, but their corresponding depths will cost more Sulphite than before.

everyone has been saying it cost TOO MUCH SULPHITE, so GGG says ok then it will now COST EVEN MORE !

way to tell the fan base to go frakk themselves.

regarding "one per character or account", the players became fignants. it's like labythine. before it was one per player. but some or many, and I understand them, should be fed up with doing the trials (especially those of the uber Lab)
and why not ask Niko to dig another hole for the character "reroll"?

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concernant " un par personnage ou par compte " , les joueurs sont devenus faignants . c'est comme le labythinte . avant cétait un par joueur . mais certains ou beaucoup , et je les comprends , devaient en avoir marre de faire les trials ( surtout ceux de l'uber Lab )
et pourquoi ne pas demander à Niko de creuser un autre trou pour le personnage " reroll" ?