Biggest problem PoE2 has is only rmters & craft teams go from 100 to 500+divs

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DavexGG#0471 wrote:

Title. Retention in the long run could be so much better.

The vast majority of the playerbase will never get to experience the real good builds because their cost is inflated to oblivion by RMTers & Craft teams which makes tens of thousands times more currency than the average player.

GGG have somewhat made it better in PoE1 with for example kingsmarch but the underlying issue remains. Accessibility to full content of the game is so much lower in PoE than any other game I've played.

In my personal case, I play an insane amount of hours and have an impossible time getting to do a good build.

And here I was thinking PoE's build diversity and trying out different builds was what set it apart the most from other ARPG's, but no. That's not true.

The separation between accessibility of the top 1% vs the 99% is ridiculous.

- Craft teams get 40 pax together, bundle their currency & get a head start in the leagues.
- RMTer's just buy stuff
- Teams of services just go to TFT and sell 6 man leeches so they can bundle the aggregate drops.

Is this really what we need to do to be a player with access to top end items?

I hope this gets looked as I honestly hope one day we'll be able to fully experience all of PoE, and that that won't be reserved only for a select few who find a way around the system.

I don't RMT and my Stormweaver is 97 and worth 600 Div and I'm sitting on 360 Div liquid.

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Vzwson#6959 wrote:

"

DavexGG#0471 wrote:

Title. Retention in the long run could be so much better.

The vast majority of the playerbase will never get to experience the real good builds because their cost is inflated to oblivion by RMTers & Craft teams which makes tens of thousands times more currency than the average player.

GGG have somewhat made it better in PoE1 with for example kingsmarch but the underlying issue remains. Accessibility to full content of the game is so much lower in PoE than any other game I've played.

In my personal case, I play an insane amount of hours and have an impossible time getting to do a good build.

And here I was thinking PoE's build diversity and trying out different builds was what set it apart the most from other ARPG's, but no. That's not true.

The separation between accessibility of the top 1% vs the 99% is ridiculous.

- Craft teams get 40 pax together, bundle their currency & get a head start in the leagues.
- RMTer's just buy stuff
- Teams of services just go to TFT and sell 6 man leeches so they can bundle the aggregate drops.

Is this really what we need to do to be a player with access to top end items?

I hope this gets looked as I honestly hope one day we'll be able to fully experience all of PoE, and that that won't be reserved only for a select few who find a way around the system.

I don't RMT and my Stormweaver is 97 and worth 600 Div and I'm sitting on 360 Div liquid.

Congrats? Not sure what to tell you, lol.

This is what happens when you completely gut crafting below mirror tier and have the game rely almost exclusively on a trade economy.

"

DavexGG#0471 wrote:

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kamiknx#1162 wrote:

I can make a real good build with exalts only and maybe a little bit of crafting myself.

I don't need to have multiple mirrors or even 1 to do all content.

And I never said you couldn't :)

If you read the post, what I said was it's a shame 99% of the playerbase won't get to experience the real strong / fun builds because they'll be gatekept to oblivion out of the best items by rmters and craft teams / clans.

i think its good tbh.


i think they can experience the fun, strong builds because the difference between having a mirror wand and having a wand thats half as powerful is killing a rare in 1 second vs killing a rare in 2 seconds. the difference in price is that one is 800 divines and the other is probably 30, the wand that kills it in 4 seconds is 2.



its the item system that gate keeps them by having such insane variance. those high end items wouldnt even exist if you didnt have people capable of using 4000 divines in currency to craft them.




you need things in the game that you really really want, in theory could find but in reality will never find and will never afford. because that makes the game exciting and gives you an endless reason to play.

if 99% of players can and do get everything the game is diablo 3 and its a piece of shit because any good player will have everything in 2 days then quit.

in poe you can always find an item slightly better than the best one you found so far and that curve extends in practice infinitely because a perfect rare on a perfect base for your build will essentially never drop. but one thats a little bit better than the best one u found so far is only a little harder to find.



the game is about finding things, when you got nothing left to find the game is over. the point is to never run out of things to find.


in a game like d3 nothing is really that exciting to find. in poe you could find a mirror, you could find a rare item worth multiple mirrors, that is possible.

ive played 20k hours of poe1 ive never found a mirror. but i have found a lot of very exciting things and i have owned quite a few mirrors. i have never had a perfect character, i both want one, hope i never get one and am glad the way the game is designed makes it almost impossible.


im playing poe2 self found because i dont even want to own a mirror in this game. the game is the most fun when you are far from having everything because thats when you can find things and progress.


havng that mirror build is like playing a racing game thats just run out of track.





imo obvs. that said they need to do a lot more to make lower mid tier gear achievable for players, game isnt perfect im just talking about the theory of extreme high end gear.

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_rt_#4636 wrote:

You're on point with most of the stuff you said.

This game has frequent meta shifts and requires big time investments in and out of the game if you want to keep up with them.
It has been this way for a long time now. 7+ years.
It's all part of a lot of systems and mechanics implemented that cater to certain audiences. It's the way GGG found to make money with the game and it works perfectly for them.
Trust me, it won't be changed and you're wasting your time creating this post. I'm 100% sure countless people like you went to the PoE 1 feedback subforum in the past to no avail.

If you don't like it, quit the game and stop giving GGG your time and your money.

There are better alternatives if you want more constant progression and not being gatekept from the content by poor game design/balancing.

Unfortunately, this is a fallacy.

Feedback is when players point out what they think is unreasonable and find bugs based on their own judgment when playing the game.

Bugs will also be subjectively judged as benign or malignant bugs depending on the situation.

My character's HP is 1, and when the shield is low, it should be prompted, but it is not, because my character's HP is 1, even if the shield is almost gone, it is still 100% of the "healthy state". This problem will change according to the player's preferences.

If I don't like the red screen prompt effect when the health value is low, then I will think it is a good thing and no need to modify it, but if I need the red screen prompt, then this is a defect for me, which means that I don't like this situation and I think it is a bug in the design.

All of the above will change the judgment according to the player's subjective preferences. If I think this problem needs to be improved and come here to give feedback, it means that I don't like this design.

Then your "If you don't like it, quit the game" is equivalent to saying that anyone who wants to give feedback here should quit the game.

You have denied this Early Access The significance of feedback also negates the significance of your own speech here.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

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DavexGG#0471 wrote:

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kamiknx#1162 wrote:

I can make a real good build with exalts only and maybe a little bit of crafting myself.

I don't need to have multiple mirrors or even 1 to do all content.

And I never said you couldn't :)

If you read the post, what I said was it's a shame 99% of the playerbase won't get to experience the real strong / fun builds because they'll be gatekept to oblivion out of the best items by rmters and craft teams / clans.

i think its good tbh.


i think they can experience the fun, strong builds because the difference between having a mirror wand and having a wand thats half as powerful is killing a rare in 1 second vs killing a rare in 2 seconds. the difference in price is that one is 800 divines and the other is probably 30, the wand that kills it in 4 seconds is 2.



its the item system that gate keeps them by having such insane variance. those high end items wouldnt even exist if you didnt have people capable of using 4000 divines in currency to craft them.




you need things in the game that you really really want, in theory could find but in reality will never find and will never afford. because that makes the game exciting and gives you an endless reason to play.

if 99% of players can and do get everything the game is diablo 3 and its a piece of shit because any good player will have everything in 2 days then quit.

in poe you can always find an item slightly better than the best one you found so far and that curve extends in practice infinitely because a perfect rare on a perfect base for your build will essentially never drop. but one thats a little bit better than the best one u found so far is only a little harder to find.



the game is about finding things, when you got nothing left to find the game is over. the point is to never run out of things to find.


in a game like d3 nothing is really that exciting to find. in poe you could find a mirror, you could find a rare item worth multiple mirrors, that is possible.

ive played 20k hours of poe1 ive never found a mirror. but i have found a lot of very exciting things and i have owned quite a few mirrors. i have never had a perfect character, i both want one, hope i never get one and am glad the way the game is designed makes it almost impossible.


im playing poe2 self found because i dont even want to own a mirror in this game. the game is the most fun when you are far from having everything because thats when you can find things and progress.


havng that mirror build is like playing a racing game thats just run out of track.





imo obvs. that said they need to do a lot more to make lower mid tier gear achievable for players, game isnt perfect im just talking about the theory of extreme high end gear.

And I agree with you, mostly. There has to be chase and not a D4 like chase where in 20h you have the best of the best.

The problem here is the variance. That's why I used the breach example.

Let's add an hypothetical for the current poe2 meta - stat stackers.
200div adorned
200div from nothing
100div ATD/CM
100div blue corrupts
100div heroic tragedy (optional)
100div morior
50div 2x rings
100div mid ingenuity
50div spirit atziris
250div astramentis
total - 1250 div

I can tell you, from experience, a stat stacker with 300divs is squishy af. Does damage yes but squishy af and not even 20% of the above build.

Now, what I'd argue vs your point is:
1. 90%+ of the playerbase (if not 99%) will never reach 300div to even do the 'mid' build.
2. Even if they did, they'd legit have to spend 300h at a 2-3div per hour farm strat to get there. How much % of the playerbase do you think will even spend a third of that time TOTAL in the season?
3. To add on top of this, imagine this scenario is recurrent Every. Single. League. You never get the best. No matter what. Even if you did spend those 300 extra hours (for the average joe) to get from 300-1250divs (on top of the hours you already spent to get the initial 300divs), in that time, the build would probably cost 2000divs.

It's an eternal game of cat & mouse.

And literally the only people who benefit from this are rmters & craft teams / guilds who end up rmt'ing as well.

There is no possible argument for this. No arguments against facts. You can just open currency exchange / trade site / TFT and see it.

"

DavexGG#0471 wrote:

"

kamiknx#1162 wrote:

I can make a real good build with exalts only and maybe a little bit of crafting myself.

I don't need to have multiple mirrors or even 1 to do all content.

And I never said you couldn't :)

If you read the post, what I said was it's a shame 99% of the playerbase won't get to experience the real strong / fun builds because they'll be gatekept to oblivion out of the best items by rmters and craft teams / clans.

I think this is caused by two problems that have been repeatedly raised by players but have not been solved so far.

1. The problem of character armor and elemental resistance upper limit

2. That is the problem of rampant use of AI script program studios that has been criticized

These two have led to a chain reaction

1. The upper limit of player's armor and elemental resistance has led to the choice of glass cannon BD, because they cannot improve resistance to achieve the killing method of interacting with BOSS, either BOSS kills players instantly or players kill BOSS instantly.

2. The previous one leads to players who have to clear all the contents of the game first and can only choose glass cannon BD construction, so players who want to clear all the contents have to buy similar equipment, then the price of these equipment will continue to rise due to supply and demand, and the use of AI script programs by studios will lead to inflation, making it more difficult for players to buy.

The chain reaction of the two problems has led to the inability to experience powerful construction

i hear you, in fairness yeah a stat stacker is one of if not the most gear dependant architypes in the game and has the most exponential scalinging.


i think the numbers you are presenting seem like they could be a reasonable picture of the reality.


my opinion on that one is that stat stacking is broken, it was broken in poe1 for way too long its broken already in poe2 and the way the power scales so ridiculously in the way you describe should not be a thing.

so i agree completely with your example, but i think its an outlier and the imo on it is that its not a fault of the item system but of a broken build archetype and thats how that specific case should be addressed.





with the bigger picture of the cat and mouse chase just generally. i see the game as a journey, this is my personal take. its easier to describe in D3 where the systems are simpler, but essentially i dont think it matters if you have 1,000,000 dps and you are fighting a tier 90 greater rift or you have 100,000,000 dps and you are fighting a tier 130 greater rift.

its sort of the same thing, its just bigger numbers. what is important is that you are on a journey and you feel good that you are now where you are, its progress over the lower rift you just progressed from. you are motivated to find a slightly better item and progress up to the next rift above.


thats the game, if you are somewhere on that curve you are youre gaming. the only problem is if you hit GR150, have primal ancient gear and nowhere left to go, now youve hit the end, its over. i dont see that as a good place to be i see that as the only place you dont want players to be.




its ok if a tiny handful of players get there because the ego boost they get from being the 0.0001% becomes a game in itself and that givs them a reason to stick around showboating, doing mirror services, being top of the leader board, whatever podium the game provides.

but generally my opinion is try and stop anyone getting there, in an ideal world no one ever has the actual best.







this is just my opinion of course. i see your posts on the forums dave you make good points and i respect your takes. this is one of those subjective issues where its perfectly valid to have a totally different philosophies, theres no right and wrong. even d3 functions, im gonna play the new d3 season tonight.

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it's a shame 99% of the playerbase won't

If that's true, it's because they don't play the game. There could be a lot of different reasons:

- they're on the forums all the time
- they never played a game in their life where they had to grind (e.g. Priston Tale, 0.1% EXP a day = good; Kal, 0.01% EXP a day = excellent)
- they fear missing out and they don't play the game, sorta like learned helplessness, they see someone with 100d and they give up on playing the game

etc

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

"

DavexGG#0471 wrote:

"

kamiknx#1162 wrote:

I can make a real good build with exalts only and maybe a little bit of crafting myself.

I don't need to have multiple mirrors or even 1 to do all content.

And I never said you couldn't :)

If you read the post, what I said was it's a shame 99% of the playerbase won't get to experience the real strong / fun builds because they'll be gatekept to oblivion out of the best items by rmters and craft teams / clans.

i think its good tbh.


i think they can experience the fun, strong builds because the difference between having a mirror wand and having a wand thats half as powerful is killing a rare in 1 second vs killing a rare in 2 seconds. the difference in price is that one is 800 divines and the other is probably 30, the wand that kills it in 4 seconds is 2.



its the item system that gate keeps them by having such insane variance. those high end items wouldnt even exist if you didnt have people capable of using 4000 divines in currency to craft them.




you need things in the game that you really really want, in theory could find but in reality will never find and will never afford. because that makes the game exciting and gives you an endless reason to play.

if 99% of players can and do get everything the game is diablo 3 and its a piece of shit because any good player will have everything in 2 days then quit.

in poe you can always find an item slightly better than the best one you found so far and that curve extends in practice infinitely because a perfect rare on a perfect base for your build will essentially never drop. but one thats a little bit better than the best one u found so far is only a little harder to find.



the game is about finding things, when you got nothing left to find the game is over. the point is to never run out of things to find.


in a game like d3 nothing is really that exciting to find. in poe you could find a mirror, you could find a rare item worth multiple mirrors, that is possible.

ive played 20k hours of poe1 ive never found a mirror. but i have found a lot of very exciting things and i have owned quite a few mirrors. i have never had a perfect character, i both want one, hope i never get one and am glad the way the game is designed makes it almost impossible.


im playing poe2 self found because i dont even want to own a mirror in this game. the game is the most fun when you are far from having everything because thats when you can find things and progress.


havng that mirror build is like playing a racing game thats just run out of track.





imo obvs. that said they need to do a lot more to make lower mid tier gear achievable for players, game isnt perfect im just talking about the theory of extreme high end gear.

The game is over when you kill all the bosses. And arguably get to level one-hundred. Crafting and looting is a nuisance to achieve that goal. Everything after that is personal preference.