are we the boomers for preferring PoE1 ?

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

what a strange take, POE2 is literally harder than POE1, its better at on boarding new players simply because of how skills work, but its got ruthless loot, multi button gameplay until you get pretty far into the endgame (and use an accidentally 1button skill like SPark that needs to be gutted) and vastly better bossing.

I think you're confusing "more casual friendly" with a less obtuce better designed skill system and combat that is paced better, feels more like a hack and slash game, and requires more focus. POE1 combat is really dumb simplistic zero attention required and only a niche audience really loves it. MrLlama' POE1 review from back in the day really speaks for a LOT of "hack and slash boomers"/

So many ARPG fans have bounced off of POE1 its pretty obvious. Its the combat of a space ship shooter. Its always been inferior to D2 and even D3 and 4 have better combat feel (while still being terrible games, which tells you how bad GGG did in this regard)

I'm a boomer and think right now Diablo 2 and POE2 are the best ARPG's ever made. POE1 is the best shmup with ARPG loot and fantasy theme skin ever made (also the only one). Like whichever game you want, but lets not try and pretend POE1button is a harder game, unless you're one of the 19 people who play ruthless mode, and even then I think I'd argue that one being Ruthless player number #14 myself.

I'm not confusing anything, I just disagree with you. I think PoE 1 is MILES better than any other ARPG on the market, present and past. And yes, I've played them all - all the way back to D1. I'm not a boomer, as I'm born after the sixties, but I'm probably older than most people in here. And there are only two ARPGs (maybe three) that have really "spoken" to me; D2, PoE and maybe D1, but in a lesser way.

And I even agree with you; PoE's combat is too fast and too zoomy, and could absolutely be toned down a little bit. But to me, build freedom, build diversity, experimentation in builds, planning, thinking and learning are all vital elements in an ARPG. And on this subject, no game even comes close to PoE. The difference between us, is that I don't view the combat as "everything". Important? Yes, but I don't boil down a game's quality based on its combat, but on everything.

So yes, PoE 2 is more casual friendly - and easier than PoE. Not necessarily the combat itself, but everything else. Partly because PoE does a worse job at teaching you the game, but also because PoE is 38568 times deeper when it comes to mechanics, builds, options and possibilities on most areas. That said, I still it's easier for the random person to hit T15 maps in PoE 2 than it is in PoE. Not because the combat is easier, but it's WAY easier to gear your character, and you need WAY less defensive investment.

I don't even think that many people would disagree with PoE 2 being more casual friendly than PoE 1. Not even GGG.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, "better" is subjective. Both games can be said to be better at some things or others and that isn't the same as "more casual" which in normal context usually implies easier to play. Easier to understand and easier to play aren't the same.

Is POE1 more convoluted poorly thought out and filled with the technical debt of past bad design choices? Absolutely. Which means its obtuse and confusing in places that POE2 doesn't suffer from.

But nothing is easier than killing screens with 1 button using any skill thats worth using in POE1. You can say there's more choices (more possible builds) I'd agree. They're illusory choices for the most part, explode screen with green particles or explode them with red, or explode with blue. I'd say that in POE1 all the choices either explode screens or are just unused. So not real choices; because thats the design space in a game where GGG let everything exponentiate to predictably dumb out of control states, and then balanced the entire game around the assumption that you explode screens, or you lose.

Build depth or complexity is another story POE2 is missing something like 70%-80 of its ascendancies and skills, we don't have like 8 classes, and like 20-30 ascendancies, entire weapon types etc. But the use of those existing subset of skills (outside of OP unintentionally 1 button stuff) is way less "casual".

Funny that a PoE 2 fan would claim anything in PoE 1 is poorly thought out when PoE2's endgame consists of a civilization map where you can't even choose the layouts you run.

The only system I would want changed from PoE 1 is alt gems being locked to lab. In PoE 2 there's a whole swath of changes I would suggest because the endgame is quite literally poorly thought out, GGG basically admitted to this themselves when they said they didn't have enough time to cook a real endgame system.

poe 2 might be a very good game in three years. until then I'll dip my toes in it but poe 1 is the main attraction for sure until then, for me.

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, "better" is subjective. Both games can be said to be better at some things or others and that isn't the same as "more casual" which in normal context usually implies easier to play. Easier to understand and easier to play aren't the same.

Is POE1 more convoluted poorly thought out and filled with the technical debt of past bad design choices? Absolutely. Which means its obtuse and confusing in places that POE2 doesn't suffer from.

But nothing is easier than killing screens with 1 button using any skill thats worth using in POE1. You can say there's more choices (more possible builds) I'd agree. They're illusory choices for the most part, explode screen with green particles or explode them with red, or explode with blue. I'd say that in POE1 all the choices either explode screens or are just unused. So not real choices; because thats the design space in a game where GGG let everything exponentiate to predictably dumb out of control states, and then balanced the entire game around the assumption that you explode screens, or you lose.

Build depth or complexity is another story POE2 is missing something like 70%-80 of its ascendancies and skills, we don't have like 8 classes, and like 20-30 ascendancies, entire weapon types etc. But the use of those existing subset of skills (outside of OP unintentionally 1 button stuff) is way less "casual".

"Casual friendly" can mean a lot. "Easier to get into" is usually the essence. And when I'm saying that PoE 2 is more casual friendly than PoE 1, I'm not using it as an insult or critique. The game is DESIGNED like that to reach more people and is in 8/10 situations a good thing. The thing is, the more casual friendly a game gets, the more depth it (usually) loses. Some people will ALWAYS call depth "convoluted" no matter what, and in some are those are the same. But in other areas, it enrichens the game A LOT.

I didn't "explode" any screens this league (depending on your definition of "explode screens"), but I took my self-made melee build all up to ubers and beat them with a skill less than 0.3% were/are using. A LOT of choices are "real" if you're not thinking META or "total efficiency". And if you ARE thinking META or total efficiency, PoE 2 is as deep as a puddle.

The thing about build diversity and ARPGs will always be time. And with time comes more freedom to do crazy stuff, through knowledge and investment.

Look at the Monk in PoE 2. Fun, fast and snappy class. 99% of builds are using Tempest Flurry or Ice Strike. Why? Because those are more or less the only two skills made for "regular melee combat". What about defenses? What options do you really have? Well, ES and/or EV. Nothing extra or "special". Maybe more will come, you are right, but when skills are all VERY restricted to weapon types, I don't really see how the upcoming axe, spear, dagger skills help the Monk diversity, depending on the last Monk ascendancy of course.

And exploding screens is also what people are doing in PoE 2 - with ONE button, at least in the endgame. Not many people are exploding screens in the acts in PoE 1, at least not in the first acts, just like PoE 2. The illusion here, is that PoE 2 is "different" in that regard.

And I'm glad you mentioned "bad design choices". PoE 2 is filled to the rim with bad design choices - from the get-go, especially in the endgame. And what really hurts here, is that instead of fixing the problems, they are band-aiding them. Bad layouts and bad tower mechanics will NEVER(!) be a "feel good mechanic", no matter how many tower layouts we get or how many waypoints they throw into a Mire map.

Look, we fundamentally disagree about what is "fun" and "good", which is OK. But I think we agree on the fact that the main focus for GGG should be on PoE 2. God knows it needs it. But PoE 1 is still probably the second or third most popular ARPG on the market, so it needs its love too.

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, "better" is subjective. Both games can be said to be better at some things or others and that isn't the same as "more casual" which in normal context usually implies easier to play. Easier to understand and easier to play aren't the same.

this is the summary that poe2 haters do not want to acknowledge. they say they can write an essay on how poe2 is bad.

i will say you can write a thesis on why you do NOT LIKE poe2 and i will say its 100% accurate because thats your subjective opinion.

if you say thesis instead states WHY poe2 is bad, i would then say the thesis is flawed and could be discarded.

the amount of hate poe2 gets because its not like poe1 is amazing.

the amount of people not understanding that opinions and preferences are outstanding too.

alhazred. you're wasting your time on such people.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

this is the summary that poe2 haters do not want to acknowledge. they say they can write an essay on how poe2 is bad.

i will say you can write a thesis on why you do NOT LIKE poe2 and i will say its 100% accurate because thats your subjective opinion.

if you say thesis instead states WHY poe2 is bad, i would then say the thesis is flawed and could be discarded.

the amount of hate poe2 gets because its not like poe1 is amazing.

the amount of people not understanding that opinions and preferences are outstanding too.

alhazred. you're wasting your time on such people.

"Such people"? What is this post?

I've written - in this very thread - that PoE 2 has great potential and that PoE 2 is and should be GGG's main focus. Hell, I've even written that the acts are solid as hell. But as long as I'm critiquing the game and pointing out huge flaws, I'm a "PoE 2 hater"? Sorry, but I actually want PoE 2 to get better, and that requires some direct feedback. And what's better than giving that through some discussion?

I like that PoE 1 and PoE 2 are different. There's NO(!) point in making a new game if they didn't make it different. But hey, I can live with being a "PoE 2 hater" if that just means I don't think the game is perfect ;)

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

"Such people"? What is this post?

I've written - in this very thread - that PoE 2 has great potential and that PoE 2 is and should be GGG's main focus. Hell, I've even written that the acts are solid as hell. But as long as I'm critiquing the game and pointing out huge flaws, I'm a "PoE 2 hater"? Sorry, but I actually want PoE 2 to get better, and that requires some direct feedback. And what's better than giving that through some discussion?

I like that PoE 1 and PoE 2 are different. There's NO(!) point in making a new game if they didn't make it different. But hey, I can live with being a "PoE 2 hater" if that just means I don't think the game is perfect ;)

i didnt mention you but to the haters in general.

if i unintentionally slighted you in the process that is my bad.

i ve seen too many haters just shitting on poe1 so if i had splash damage on thats my bad.

then again i reread some of your posts such as "poe1 is miles better than poe2".

thats quite a biased thing to say no?

tho i do believe you do want poe2 to improve. just that when you say something that biased it really makes me question.

my hot take is poe2 is actually in a good state for mace users. just that everything else needs to be reined in a huge bunch.

poe1 simply is a different beast. i m pretty sure our OPINIONs on how we both want poe2 to be better is going to split into 2 opposing paths. or am i mistaken?

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exsea#1724 wrote:

thats quite a biased thing to say no?

Of course it's biased; it's my opinion, and opinions are always biased to some degree. But that's my general impression after "finishing" PoE 2. In almost every category I deem important to an ARPG, PoE 1 scores higher than PoE 2. And you know what? It should, because one game is in EA, the other one has 10+ years of added meat to its bones.

Now, does PoE 2 have a higher potential? Of course. And you know what? It should, because it's made by a multi million dollar company, and PoE 1 started out as a game made by a handful of nerds. But to really reach that potential, they need to do the right things, make the right changes and don't be too stubborn to say "this idea wasn't good enough - and won't be good enough, so we have to start from scratch". And our job as "EA testers" is to tell them that, no matter how "hateful" you seem to think it is.

Right now PoE 1 is miles better, even though they are "different beasts"; they are still ARPGs. But in two years time? PoE 2 can absolutely be better if they do the right things. And you know what? I think it will take AT LEAST two years to get an endgame worthy of being a successor to PoE 1's endgame, especially if they keep focusing on band-aids instead of the core problems.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

thats quite a biased thing to say no?

Spoiler

You responded to a guy responding to me, so I took for granted that you were referring to me.

Of course it's biased; it's my opinion, and opinions are always biased to some degree. But that's my general impression after "finishing" PoE 2. In almost every category I deem important to an ARPG, PoE 1 scores higher than PoE 2. And you know what? It should, because one game is in EA, the other one has 10+ years of added meat to its bones.

Now, does PoE 2 have a higher potential? Of course. And you know what? It should, because it's made by a multi million dollar company, and PoE 1 started out as a game made by a handful of nerds. But to really reach that potential, they need to do the right things, make the right changes and don't be too stubborn to say "this idea wasn't good enough - and won't be good enough, so we have to start from scratch". And our job as "EA testers" is to tell them that, no matter how "hateful" you seem to think it is.

Right now PoE 1 is miles better, even though they are "different beasts"; they are still ARPGs. But in two years time? PoE 2 can absolutely be better if they do the right things. And you know what? I think it will take AT LEAST two years to get an endgame worthy of being a successor to PoE 1's endgame, especially if they keep focusing on band-aids instead of the core problems.

based on your response to me, my previous lashing out does not apply to you. and apologize if you felt attacked. you explained yourself and i may have unnecessarily lashed at you. my bad

I don’t really watch Twitch aside from claiming the drops, but I just checked and PoE currently has more viewers than PoE2. Yikes!