Im fine with the EXP Penalty.

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hboi#6131 wrote:

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Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

XP penalty is a shiity outdated concept. It adds nothing to this game.

Instead it forces everyone to play stupid oneshot builds and forces everyone else to drop this game entirely.

Outdated? You're the problem with modern triple a games.

I mean, yeah, it is. It follows the philosophy of punishing someone for doing bad instead of rewarding them for doing good.

Take D3 for instance. There was a shrine you could collect when playing that would give you a small exp boost for a set amount of exp to be collected in the future. You could stack those boosts up. Dying would remove all the stacks.

Now D3 had many flaws, but that was a genuinely good approach to this issue. Reward the player for surviving instead of punishing the player for death.
Same could be done here. Upon successfully clearing a map you gain a small exp boost for the next map. It could be really simple.

He is correct, we aren't forced to do exp loss on death just because it was in D2 25 years ago. Which btw. wasn't even in D2, because there you could recoup 75% of the exp lost if you reached your corpse - i.e., you could avoid the majority of the punishment through active gameplay and doing good.

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b3si#7304 wrote:

like some ppl said previsouly, its not the exp penaly itself, its together with the amount of time you need to farm those 10% when you reach 90++ .. its ridiculous. If they want to keep the time it takes to level exp on those leves remove the xp loss!

if not, let us level faster! i dont get why it has to be "impossible" to reach 100 on a char in poe2, its just to please the fanboys that think they're superior beings.

Also, the thing is.. NO ONE will stop playing because they remove the xp loss or let leveling be faster on levle90+.

BUT ALOT OF PLAYERS WILL STOP playing because of this stupid "mechanic".

Trust me.

This 100%. Uninstalled the game for 2 main reasons:

1: leveling up after lvl90 is a slog from death penalty combined with slow XP gain.

2: Item drops are trash. Basically just farmed for divs that almost never drop just to find out I can't afford anything good on an inflated market.

After hitting lvl 92, it just felt like I wasn't progressing at all.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

I was first on here to call their initial '100% free to play model' BS. you binning XP penalty into monetization via 3d chess is yet another tactic to convince more ppl to join your demands of making the game have less risks, which if done enough will destroy this game.

You know that you can press the escape button and just log out to character screen when you are about to die, right? Removing all the risk there is.
Are you for removing this option? Because if not, your appeal to integrity of the game is moot.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

its not about rewards/punishment. you are not learning, you are playing a game. if there would be nothing to risk the game would be pointless/boring.

to the 'make levelling faster' argument- poe1 did that, its worse than removing XP penalty because when you don't die much its way too fast to level now, which removed the grind form the game together with XP penalty (because you hardly feel it, if ever)

There is already enough risk - you lose a waystone, you lose a node, you lose all the precursor juice, you lose time invested, you lose potential annointment, you lose unlooted items.
Running a 6 affix t18 map annointed with 75% delirium is pretty damn risky and close to like 200 exalts or so in cost, dying makes you lose all that.
The argument that you have to, you just have to strip the player of past progress to keep the stakes high makes no sense whatsoever.

If you run Arbiter or King of the Mists you are using 3-8 divine orbs worth in material (and probably dozens of hours of time invested to get those). There is already enough risk.

I don't think you understand that PoE2 leveling is significantly slower than PoE1 leveling due to the nature of how mapping works here. It takes hundreds of hours. There is enough grind there.

Besides, why does Omen of Amelioration exist? Clearly there is a sort of loophole in game that allows you to circumvent the majority of the exp loss if you pay up in currency. Defeats your point

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3689040

fair enough

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mikeab79#3627 wrote:

Say they remove these, or some of these penalties. What happens when most to all players now reach 100? Would everyone be content with 100 being it, or would the next demand be more progression past 100? I only ask, because this very thing is/has been demanded in other games. In the other games, every time the demand is met, shorty after, the calls for more progression past max level is made. Calls for more content is made to meet the new power creep. Is this what we really want?

This argument kinda falls flat right away once you realize that this already exists in the current game. The only difference is some people will reach that point a little faster than others. If you reach 100 now with or without xp loss it reaches the same point but on a different time invested scale. The calls for more progression will always exist that is the entire point of these games.

Also games like these already have systems in place that allow leveling past 100 in a separate system. Diablo 3 has the paragon system that has infinite scaling but also has a mode that has infinite scaling monsters to keep that challenge going. On top of that scaling in Diablo 3, in order to make it so the player does not become too strong too fast they have caps on the really important paragon stats where as the less important but still useful stats have no cap.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a system that allows past 100 leveling in some shape and the argument of "that would make the game bad" just falls on deaf ears due to the fact that people want to use their character they spent time on and keep that same level of fulfilment. Once you reach level 100 you basically just tell yourself "okay time to endlessly fight bosses" or never touch the character again and play a new one, or use your strong character to item grind for your new character like what i currently do.

At this very moment once you reach about 25% in your XP bar you get this sudden feeling of "well time to avoid this mechanic until i level up so that way i do not lose the last 10 hours to something out of my control." Right now Everytime i see people playing the game they wait till they level up before doing hard content so they don't get punished because you cant lose xp if you have no xp. If you currently have 25% or more XP do not go near delirium that is pretty much a universal agreement. Why should a player feel like they have to lock away gameplay in order to not waste there time?

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

omens exist don;t defeat my point, its a rare item you can use to amliorate the xp loss if you choose to do so, you want it for free.

again, there is a reaosn for xp penalty, none of you are even trying to understand it, you just going around picking at things unrelated to it. this convo, like always, will go on in circles, forever

yeah, the omen cost like 70 exalts, which is not something you can't afford at say lvl 96.

There is nothing to understand, that's the thing. It's an antiquated outdated mechanic that is just plain bad game design disincentivizing you from taking risks. That's why literally no other game has it. And the few that do have similar mechanics, like the soulsborne games or even D2, allow you to recoup them through active gameplay. So they turn a loss into a win through active gameplay, which is at least thoughtful implementation of the mechanic.

Here there is nothing, just punishment for playing the game essentially, with the punishment growing exponentially with the level and with engagement of higher tier content. And once I decide, hey I don't care about leveling anymore, the punishment immediately vanishes, making all this talk about risk and it's necessity completely obsolete. Just as it is completely obsolete before you reach like lvl 90.

The funny thing is it doesn't even set you back in levels. Due to the exponential nature of exp requirement for leveling, you can die a 100 times going from level 70 to level 95 and the exp loss probably won't even amount to a single level difference if you hadn't died. It's just a gigantic time waster. Nothing more. And in an uber-grindy game like this we really do not need mechanics that solely exist to waste your time.

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Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

I dont think the EXP Penalty is an issue. I dont mind it existing.

I do think the game has an issue with dying being to punishing in one way or another.
Dying makes you:
- lose exp
- lose a map
- lose map modifiers (breach, tablets, etc.)
- you cant anointed map on an attempted node
- lose citadel bosses
- lose potential loot
- u maybe have to use another map

That together is a problem.

On top of that, GGG doesn't seem to acknowledge why people are dying. It feels like they gas light us into thinking "if you die...it's because you/your build are/is not good enough".

The vast majority of my deaths are too things that don't have counter-play. One-shot stuff killing me from the other side of the screen, visual clarity, death mechanics I can't even see, dodges that require capped out move speed and millisecond timing, bugs, or being instant swarmed and micro stunned. None of that has something for me to learn from.

It's just unbalanced game design. Which would be fine, except for the fact that GGG is punishing me for it. If I'm dying to stuff that doesn't have counter play, then there is no learning experience, and it's just frustrating.

So yes, pick 1 thing to lose, not everything that you mentioned, especially since most deaths for people who make it to late gamer aren't going to have a lot of counter play to it.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

this wager is what makes the game fun. any game is more fun with a wager

There exits a gamemode that already does that. It's called hardcore.

You can philosophize as much as you want but reality clashes with your theories. If people set out the goal to level past 90 they start taking progressively less risk to achieve it because the wager gets to high for the potential reward that can be obtained. that's a fact, ask any of your fellow gamers. They will confirm.
And if they don't care to level past 90 then they do not wager at all, according to you removing all the fun from the game.

So the mechanic of exp loss in reality completely fails at achieving what it is set out to do according to your theory. The player isn't exhilarated at the prospect of his wager ever increasing, he stops engaging with risk because it is just not worth it.

But I guess we won't see eye to eye here. Personally, I would prefer that softcore mode isn't ham-fisted into some sort of hardcore light for some lofty philosophy rooted in bad game design principles from the last millenium

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

hardcore argument once again- another fallacy without trying to understand the reason. the game has no goal to level past 90, this was repeated by devs many times. reality is simple you just refuse to accept it

Brother, you are the only one who uses fallacies here to not have to engage with actual arguments. Like this post, it's just an appeal to authority.