Just watched the interviews about balancing. That explains a lot.

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Cult_of_Resine#3258 wrote:

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Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

To me that was understandable and not really shocking. After all this game is immensly complex and requires not only a vast amount of knowledge but also an understanding of how changes effect all the intervowen mechanics.

What I found more surprising is that they only now started using big data analysis. Like what? There was no means of measuring the impact of balancing decisions outside of vibes?

yeah i was surprised by that too. in fact it's kind of amazing the game works as well as it does if they're balancing based on vibes and, i hope, some kind of modelling to capture some of the nth-order effects of changes.

i understand the argument that they dont want to be overly reliant on data because they can optimize the soul away from the game but they should use _some_ data.

Not using data to balance is pretty insane tbh, taking into account e.g. Dota has been doing it for a decade already with a very systematic approach.

I would've just expected they already have it implemented in POE1, and copy it from there, but guess not.

Still, this is not rocket science, if they start now and do it properly (hire a person who knows how to do it), it is up and running in a month or so.

"

Legioona#1076 wrote:

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Cult_of_Resine#3258 wrote:

"

Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

To me that was understandable and not really shocking. After all this game is immensly complex and requires not only a vast amount of knowledge but also an understanding of how changes effect all the intervowen mechanics.

What I found more surprising is that they only now started using big data analysis. Like what? There was no means of measuring the impact of balancing decisions outside of vibes?

yeah i was surprised by that too. in fact it's kind of amazing the game works as well as it does if they're balancing based on vibes and, i hope, some kind of modelling to capture some of the nth-order effects of changes.

i understand the argument that they dont want to be overly reliant on data because they can optimize the soul away from the game but they should use _some_ data.

Not using data to balance is pretty insane tbh, taking into account e.g. Dota has been doing it for a decade already with a very systematic approach.

I would've just expected they already have it implemented in POE1, and copy it from there, but guess not.

Still, this is not rocket science, if they start now and do it properly (hire a person who knows how to do it), it is up and running in a month or so.

Dota 2 is a purely competetive game, where it's crucial to have more than enough data. There is no real "need" to have sophisticated data analysis in a singleplayer game.

Obscenely absurd OP skills in PoE are welcomed by the community, where in Dota that would destroy the whole game.

By your meassure they would need to nerf/buff every skill in PoE to oblivion to get a homogenic pile of mediocrity.

"

Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

However, when you look at the stuff Jonathan mentioned that volatile plants were responsible for 55% of deaths (which everyone was complaining about in the forums too), like 40% of maps where Hidden Grotto and Astramentis had a drop rate of 1/45000 that of a divine orb, then it's glaringly obvious how the vibes based approach overlooks huge issues with the game.
Just goes to show how without data backed balancing you can completely overlook game defining things like volatile plants being completely overtuned.

The thing all of these forum posts seem to miss, or blatantly ignore: Chance based is chance based. 1/45000 can be overlooked. People dying to plants is mainly a people problem, not a balancing problem. You can see the orbs, you can hear the orbs. I have died maybe 2 times to them, because I wasn't paying attention.

People dying to orbs are mostly not paying attention.

"

bloomhead#3858 wrote:

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Legioona#1076 wrote:

Not using data to balance is pretty insane tbh, taking into account e.g. Dota has been doing it for a decade already with a very systematic approach.

I would've just expected they already have it implemented in POE1, and copy it from there, but guess not.

Still, this is not rocket science, if they start now and do it properly (hire a person who knows how to do it), it is up and running in a month or so.

Dota 2 is a purely competetive game, where it's crucial to have more than enough data. There is no real "need" to have sophisticated data analysis in a singleplayer game.

Obscenely absurd OP skills in PoE are welcomed by the community, where in Dota that would destroy the whole game.

By your meassure they would need to nerf/buff every skill in PoE to oblivion to get a homogenic pile of mediocrity.

Or alternatively, give all skills same level of OP potential?

"

bloomhead#3858 wrote:

"

Slart1bartfast#0332 wrote:

However, when you look at the stuff Jonathan mentioned that volatile plants were responsible for 55% of deaths (which everyone was complaining about in the forums too), like 40% of maps where Hidden Grotto and Astramentis had a drop rate of 1/45000 that of a divine orb, then it's glaringly obvious how the vibes based approach overlooks huge issues with the game.
Just goes to show how without data backed balancing you can completely overlook game defining things like volatile plants being completely overtuned.

The thing all of these forum posts seem to miss, or blatantly ignore: Chance based is chance based. 1/45000 can be overlooked. People dying to plants is mainly a people problem, not a balancing problem. You can see the orbs, you can hear the orbs. I have died maybe 2 times to them, because I wasn't paying attention.

People dying to orbs are mostly not paying attention.

"There is nothing wrong with the game, the players are at fault." is not a very compelling selling argument.

In the end, the only thing that matters is the player count.

"

Legioona#1076 wrote:

Or alternatively, give all skills same level of OP potential?

That's the nature of an overly complex game. That's what leagues are for. They can't account for all combinations. Some stuff will just be op. And as has been said: Nerfs midleague won't be done unless they are bugs. Robbing people of their power is just bad.

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Legioona#1076 wrote:

"There is nothing wrong with the game, the players are at fault." is not a very compelling selling argument.

In the end, the only thing that matters is the player count.

Where did I say that there is nothing wrong with the game?

"

bloomhead#3858 wrote:

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Legioona#1076 wrote:

Or alternatively, give all skills same level of OP potential?

That's the nature of an overly complex game. That's what leagues are for. They can't account for all combinations. Some stuff will just be op. And as has been said: Nerfs midleague won't be done unless they are bugs. Robbing people of their power is just bad.

The balancing can be dynamically implemented so, that it buffs weaker skills to the level of the most op skill on a daily basis.

Then, between seasons, the most op skill is nerfed, trying to balance what the level of OP should be, not individual skills.


But, this road to "healing" starts with realising that balance is worth pursuing.

"

Legioona#1076 wrote:

The balancing can be dynamically implemented so, that it buffs weaker skills to the level of the most op skill on a daily basis.

Then, between seasons, the most op skill is nerfed, trying to balance what the level of OP should be, not individual skills.


But, this road to "healing" starts with realising that balance is worth pursuing.

If you buff every skill into oblivion there is no reason to even play this game since it's not balanced at all. Overpowered, as the term obviously suggets, means overpowered. If you want to play one-click games, just play cookie-clickers.

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

People dying to plants is mainly a people problem, not a balancing problem. You can see the orbs, you can hear the orbs. I have died maybe 2 times to them, because I wasn't paying attention.

People dying to orbs are mostly not paying attention.

This is not true. As a warrior I died a ton of times to those orbs by not seeing them when a gazillion other visual and audio effects are on top of it all. I also died quite a few times to them by being body blocked or getting stuck on terrain. I died to them due to them being cast right on top of me. Hell, once I was even pushed into the orbs by one of those fettered monstrosity thingies.

Volatile plants at the power level they are at right now are completely atrocious to play against as a warrior. And even if you manage to avoid getting blocked, getting stuck or getting pushed into them and perfectly see and hear them at all times, their threat level makes it so that as melee you are more preoccupied with dodging them than actually fighting making it so that 2/3 of the time volatile plants are around you can't dps. Bonus cancer if it's happening in a temporal bubble. Extra bonus cancer if it's two rares with volatiles at them same time making it so you are chased by 6 orbs on two different timers.