Mercenaries need to go core!

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

While it might be fun to "creep" on people's mercs, I don’t think it would add much value to the game. .

Making Mercs as part of the public profile would allow POB to also import the merc setup as part of your build, saving alot of time inputting custom configuration for each mercs auras/gear effects.

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Aeon42#2688 wrote:

Power creep being bad...

Yes, some of the things you mentioned should have NEVER been implemented permanently. Even something as iconic as HH has irreparably damaged the development of the game since it was introduced.

But to your point: so we should do nothing because there has been power creep in the past? That's like.....the worst possible argument anyone can make about any issue.


For more clarity: there are levels of power creep. Mercenary power creep is NOT the same level of "power" and tradeoff as corruption. Not even in the same playing field. While a perfect double corruption can be a SERIOUS power increase, the cost of such a thing is huge with a huge sink involved. Furthermore, items like BiS rares are basically never corrupted because of the cost. Mercs have NO COST.

The power that comes from a merc is not just a singular effect like some of the ones you mentioned: it is a combination of ALL of the things you mentioned. Auras, corruptions, OP uniques, you name it. It ALL works on mercs. It is exponentially higher power creep than what would be "typical".....with no real tradeoff.

And plus....why do you think there is no item editor in-game? Why do you think we don't all just start dealing 1 trillion damage? Power limitations and gradations are quite literally the glue that hold this entire game together. It is not something that can be ignored, both positive AND negative.



Why is power creep a problem in a non-pvp game? I would argue it is MOSTLY a problem in non-pvp games. In PVP games, powercreep is negligible because everyone will creep the same and the game fundamentally won't change. BUT in a PVE game, power creep means serious problems for existing content. Think on how the game has developed from 2.0 until now: the shaper fight was the pinnacle "uber" content of the 2.0 day because of our typical damage potential and speed. But nowadays, thanks to rampant power creep that went unchecked for WAY too long, even uber shaper (perhaps not uber uber) is "basic" content that scuffed builds would have next to no issues completing.

Because of the extensive power available to players nowadays, developers have needed to resort to "tricks" to kill players: hence the 1hkos from off-screen, or on-death effects, or piercing / t17 build killing mods. All of these development choices AGAINST US exist because of power creep.


It isn't as simple as "Why should we care, there is no competition".....that's how games end up shutting down and becoming trash.

Ah, cowmoo, it's an obvious things for all people here :) This guys just want their OP mercs "the way they are" and they don't care, that this would break balance, reduce difficulty, playtime and interestingness of PoE.

Even if mercs will added to core, they should be optional, not a must have thing without drawbacks. Because not all people want to play with them / equip them.

I think the only solution that will satisfy all of us - having two separate leagues (which unlikely happen) - with and without mercs.

However i have another unpopular solution

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Even if mercs will added to core, they should be optional, not a must have thing without drawbacks. Because not all people want to play with them / equip them.

They are already pretty much optional content. You either engage with mercs, or you don't.
It's even pretty easy to ignore them as they don't even bother you in maps at all, they just stand there and wait for your engagement.

There's also no drawback if you decide to play without merc as you just skip having to grind for your desired merc, get good gear yada yada. You lose out on rewards they offer, and lack out on the bit of power they can provide, but well that's a obvious outcome if you choose to not engage with something.

Aside of that let's be real, more options for player and build customization never hurts, as it only opens up more options to mess around with.

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I think the only solution that will satisfy all of us - having two separate leagues (which unlikely happen) - with and without mercs.

That's not gonna happen as they won't split the player base even further more. Not that it's needed anyways. If you don't want to play with mercs, just hardskip them, problem solved. It's not like your gameplay gets impacted by other players using mercs or vice versa lol.
Maybe it's time to crank down the fomo just a tiny bit.

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Pashid#4643 wrote:

They are already pretty much optional content. You either engage with mercs, or you don't.

Man, pls stop talking nonsense. All people understand that now mercs are free huge powerup. It's like saying "your inventory is optional - you can play without items if you want", but ofc noone skip free powerup.

For example AG is optional. Does it give you power - yes. Does it do it for free - no. You need 2-4 gems, minion affixes on gear and tree... Therefore he is optional, because you can use him or use another gems, skilltree points.

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Pashid#4643 wrote:

There's also no drawback if you decide to play without merc as you just skip having to grind for your desired merc, get good gear yada yada

Grind desired merc? Just grab first one with desired aura - it cost you half of a day. And you will get 90% available power.

Wear merc is hard and costly? Are you serious? Any decent build cost 100+ div, for example mine 500div. In this context any player can buy hundreds of Doryani for 100c. So wearing them not a problem even for newbie players.

Essences, fossils and other crafting methods are optional because the end result is the same.

Mercs are literally AGs with zero downsides, no penalties and no reason to not use, granting an absurd increase in power. AGs alredy need gear to be found, so that excuse makes no sense either.

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Man, pls stop talking nonsense. All people understand that now mercs are free huge powerup. It's like saying "your inventory is optional - you can play without items if you want", but ofc noone skip free powerup.

For example AG is optional. Does it give you power - yes. Does it do it for free - no. You need 2-4 gems, minion affixes on gear and tree... Therefore he is optional, because you can use him or use another gems, skilltree points.

I think you don't quite get the idea of what optional means.
Mercs are just as optional as squeezing in an AG into your build or not. It's just as optional as handpicking what kind of content you want to run and skip.
While they do provide a decent boost of power you could just hard skip them if you choose to not engage with the content. There's not a single content in the game with the need of you rocking around with a merc. If someone decides to play with mercs, well they get the benefits of using one, and if someone like you doesn't want to engage with the mechanic, well you simply don't get the benefits. It's that simple. No need to highlight your personal fomo even further.

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Grind desired merc? Just grab first one with desired aura - it cost you half of a day. And you will get 90% available power.
Wear merc is hard and costly? Are you serious? Any decent build cost 100+ div, for example mine 500div. In this context any player can buy hundreds of Doryani for 100c. So wearing them not a problem even for newbie players.

A blank first pick merc is not going to get you that.
Neither is a merc with a Doryani going to provide you benefits unless you build your merc around it properly. You have to drain quite a bit of currency into your merc to really unlock the full power they can provide. Either by actually making full use of doryani, or simply to get them more survivability to survive higher juiced content as a dead merc provides nothing.
You also may or may not realize it but you can use a merc for more than just doryani memes.

So tell us more that you don't know what you're talking about, without telling us that you don't know what you're talking about. Nothing but fomo as usual

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

For example AG is optional. Does it give you power - yes. Does it do it for free - no. You need 2-4 gems, minion affixes on gear and tree... Therefore he is optional, because you can use him or use another gems, skilltree points.

Essentially, AGs and Mercs are two sides of the same coin, both optional yet integral to optimize performance. To make them work, you have to acquire the necessary gear, but whether or not you use them is entirely up to you. The catch with AGs is the sacrifice of two gems slots, which, ironically, is often more than sufficient. On the other hand, Mercs come with the early cost of a 0.5 party penalty, which lasts until they evolve from a burden into a beneficial asset.

In both cases, they’re optional, if you don’t want them, you don’t have to use them. However, if Mercs are "not optional" for you due to the power they provide, and you fear missing out by not using one, then maybe it’s time to feel the same about AGs. With their rework, AGs now keep their items upon death, so you can slot them into just about any build for ag buffs. It’s a bit of a strange FOMO take to claim something is 'not optional' just because it provides benefits and you fear missing out if you don’t engage with it.

Folks talking about how mercs are "optional" are completely failing to foresee what will eventually come about BECAUSE of their existence.

Sure....within the context of the PRESENT game, they are optional. You don't need their power to complete anything.

But the same can be said of any number of things that weren't "mandatory"....until they were thanks to game development. The idea that mercenaries even EXIST is reason enough for the developers to create harder and harder content with that power's existence in mind.

That is what "power creep" is. It isn't a snapshot of the present...its a glimpse into the damaging future it represents.



Just because a player may choose to not engage in the ceiling of power of their respective build...doesn't make it not exist. And the game is always, ALWAYS balanced around the TOP end and not anywhere else.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The idea that mercenaries even EXIST is reason enough for the developers to create harder and harder content with that power's existence in mind.

That is what "power creep" is. It isn't a snapshot of the present...its a glimpse into the damaging future it represents.

If player power, both existing and growing, were a significant motivator for developers to increase difficulty, we’d see a very different game. Instead, there’s nothing beyond Uber fights that really challenges players, and even Uber content has become easier over time. The entry ceiling has been lowered so much that high-end content feels like a breeze.

Aside from a few community-created Valdo maps, developers haven’t really addressed power creep. Tier 17 maps are a perfect example, they’re recycled content with a few "noob filter" mods like Volatile Cores and Drowning Orbs.
These aren’t tough if you understand the game’s basics. The challenge? Simply reading your map mods and reacting accordingly.
If you’re dying repeatedly to these mods, it’s not because they’re unfair, it’s because you aren’t paying attention to the clear in-game signals like “move the hell out of there.”

Rather than scaling the challenge to match rising player power, developers just keep adding more power without adjusting content. A well-needed nerf, like we saw in Expedition league, could balance things out, but that’s not happening.
Instead, content is designed to keep players busy, not challenge them. And that's where mercenaries come in. It’s clear that GGG’s intention was to offer new ways to keep players busy and engaged. They’re trying out fresh ideas, like mercenaries and systems like Kingsmarch, or recent leagues of the past, rather than just sticking with the old “kill mobs in a circle and get loot” formula that worked years ago.

These systems give players more options and agency to improve their power in different ways, but they aren't there to make the game harder. They’re designed to offer easier access to endgame content while avoiding the need and work to raise difficulty levels, something GGG has been reluctant to do over the years. With little to no meaningful adjustments to address the endless growth of player power, mercenaries simply add another grind for players to dive into if they want to.

Mercenaries wouldn’t be optional if content required power levels that couldn’t be reached without them, or if mercenaries were added to the core game and player power was dramatically reduced to compensate for the power they provide. But we both know that’s not how GGG operates, or has operated in the past. Whenever they add something new, it’s purely another avenue to boost player power, not balance or challenge it. Mercenaries are just another optional power boost. You can pick them up if you want more power, but you’re not locked out of anything if you don’t.

In the current state of the game, though, mercenaries are beyond needed. Player power has grown to a point where the difficulty of content is trivial unless you push the maximum limits. Mercenaries offer that extra bit of power for players who want it, but the reality is that the base game has become so easy that this additional layer of power isn't necessary at all. You don’t need them to progress, they’re just another power candy for those who want it.

The new Tier 16.5 maps really highlight this issue. They’re a joke, a sign that the devs aren’t adjusting difficulty to match player power. Instead of scaling challenges, they just keep adding power. So in the end, mercenaries are purely optional.

Do you want the extra power? Go for it. But if you don’t, you're not missing anything significant. The game’s difficulty is already so low, it’s not like you'd be locked out of content. Some may feel the FOMO start to creep up on them, but that really doesn’t change the fact that even if mercenaries were added to the core game, they wouldn't be mandatory. In the end, it’s just a player issue, dealing with FOMO and keeping it in check.


Time to see what GGG’s cooking up. We should hear something soon about mercs and the next league.