Mercenaries need to go core!
" No, I think you're missing the bigger picture, more player power has made the game easier, not harder. Back in the Shaper era, endgame meant pinnacle content and T16 maps, and it was genuinely harder. Power was far less accessible, and you had to put real effort into reaching that stage of the game. Today? Pinnacle content and T16s can be done just by allocating a few passive points and picking up ground loot along the way during Atlas progression. The requirements haven’t changed much, but hitting the needed threshold has never been easier, thanks to the sheer amount of built-in player power. And that same pattern continues beyond pinnacle and T16 content. Even with newer challenges, there’s a fixed ceiling, but every new layer of player power makes reaching that ceiling easier and faster. The difficulty curve hasn’t gone up, our tools have just massively outpaced it. So hands down, GGG needs to take the time to rebalance the core game around modern standards, or go nuclear and strip back player power to better match existing content. Either way, the foundation needs addressing. Meanwhile, they should keep adding fresh league mechanics to keep the veteran crowd engaged, because let’s be honest, many of us have seen most of what the game has to offer, and we keep playing to try new things. That’s why something like Mercenaries would be a great fit for the core game, not as something to break balance further, but because it adds build variety and character customization, which is exactly the kind of long-term value Path of Exile needs. In fact, even if some call it “bloated,” that variety has been a big reason the game is still around and popular, offering players lasting options and fresh content. In the end, it all comes down to meaningful balancing, not just piling more sugar onto an already oversaturated cake until the game dies of diabetes, much like what happened to Diablo 3. Windows 11, 9950X3D, RTX 4090, 96GB DDR5, 14,100 MB/s SSD, 15,360x2160p @240Hz Ultra 4K Gaming & Workspace Powerhouse
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Apologies @Adron: I don't play the game using this account so can't PM. Literally never tried PM-ing, here or on my main playing account but I guess you need a certain level character in-game to do it which is a rather interesting concept I guess to combat spammers and bots....
but yes I agree and its a shame. @Void: No, no no......its not that the GAME itself has gotten easier. It literally hasn't, mathematically and demonstrably. It's that YOU have personally gotten BETTER and more efficient. The game couldn't keep up with YOUR skill increase. You are almost assuredly able to handle and do much more...with much less. That is simply the nature of playing the same game for a long time. I'd be seriously concerned if you hadn't improved over all this time. You are ignoring your OWN growth as a player and assuming that everything has simply gotten easier around you. That's what it FEELS like to gain experience, but the DIFFICULTY, the real baseline difficulty, has not gotten easier. It's only gotten harder. The end of the atlas Maven fight, or even base Eater and Exarch are incomparably harder than endgame Shaper was: in every way possible. Debuffs, ground effects, 1hkos, health, base damage, speed, you name it....its harder. Magnitudes and magnitudes harder. Even t16 NORMAL mapping is WAY harder with AN mods, more monster health and damage, more debuffs, heavier mod-pools thanks to atlas passives, etc. Yet the gear that drops on the ground is almost the same level of power as it was in Shaper days, with the exception of life rolls and base defense rolls which certainly help, but they don't out-pace the buffs to enemies around them. You are simply far more able to predict and handle any difficulty that might come. You KNOW what you need to make things easy. You KNOW the power you need. You KNOW how to craft items so that you are never 10+ levels behind in terms of mod power. And so you THINK the game is easier, because to YOU and YOUR ABILITY....it now is. No matter what GGG might throw at you numerically...you are ready for it and able to overcome it with little difficulty. But a new player starting out NOW versus starting out back then? Absolutely no way in hell is the game EASIER. For one thing, its far bigger in every way. More skills, more passives, more ways to make crucial mistakes, more confusion, more mechanics, more enemies....the time it took to LEARN PoE 7+ years ago was a fraction of the time it takes new players NOW to grasp even the bottom rung of the PoE ladder of knowledge. Starting anew....with PoE 2 Last edited by cowmoo275#3095 on Sep 21, 2025, 7:17:58 PM
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" Here’s a quote from the Expedition manifesto, back when even the devs openly admitted that player power had gone way overboard. They didn’t just say that it happened, they outlined why, too many systems stacking power passively, with little to no corresponding challenge added. Sound familiar? Because nothing’s really changed, if anything, it's only gotten worse with each league. It's a shame they stopped making those kinds of bold adjustments after Lake of Kalandra, likely due to the split dev team and the constant rush to ship new leagues and PoE2. " The truth is, we’re already back in that state, and have been for several leagues now. Power creep still dominates across all levels of content, and it just keeps growing. It’s not just that players are smarter, it’s the sheer amount of passive player power being handed out. Transfigured gems, quality rework, constant gem buffs, new power-packed items… it all stacks up. Meanwhile, content hasn’t kept pace, and the overall power vs. content balance is completely lopsided. They should absolutely add mercenaries, if only to inject more build diversity. But more importantly, they need to stop tiptoeing around balance. Bring back something like the Expedition patch, bold, sweeping and massive changes. Not just nuking whatever ability is meta at the time to feign balance, only to shift the spotlight while total player power stays wildly out of proportion. Windows 11, 9950X3D, RTX 4090, 96GB DDR5, 14,100 MB/s SSD, 15,360x2160p @240Hz Ultra 4K Gaming & Workspace Powerhouse
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^lol it appears you aren't understanding all of what you quoted.....because it ALSO states "improved collective understanding" aka....players became too experienced with the way things happened. Not only that, but they FIXED or worked extremely hard to fix the problems they saw, and stated as such.
GGG was poor at balancing new content quite a few patches prior to expedition. Most notable culprits were Harvest and Delirium leagues. And then 3.14 happened and reset the playing board. Since then, they have done far more nerfing than buffing. Check out some of the mirror items prior to 3.14 and 3.15 (expedition)....they are obscenely more powerful than current mirror items (in general). The rework to mana reservation also made huge differences. But sure I guess keep trying to explain away your own natural gain in experience? Saying the game NOW is functionally easier than it used to be back in the 2.0-early 3.0s is just pure foolishness when almost 90% of the systems since that have received almost exclusively universal nerfs in conjunction and comparison to monster and boss buffs. Foolishness or a severe lack of memory of what it felt like to level a character and complete the pinnacle content back in those days. The one thing that IS potentially true though, is that maybe more veteran players are around today (by magnitude) than perhaps there were in older days. So like what GGG said the "collective experience" became too strong: there were too many players operating at a high level for their liking. But that still doesn't make the game functionally easier....it means players got too good. The reason new players have so much trouble getting into PoE is precisely because GGG MISTAKENLY took "collective experience" as gospel truth and began to balance the game at the 3.14/15 time far more around the best players, rather than making it an enjoyable game for everyone. Just like you....they interpreted SOME players deleting bosses in 3 seconds as a sign that EVERYONE was doing that or would be capable of doing that. That simply wasn't and isn't true. They have openly stated that the "majority" of PoE players don't get into the endgame....they weren't even in consideration to that GGG post. BUT they were absolutely correct in clamping down on rampant high-end power creep. They need to balance on BOTH ends. And you know what's even more funny here? The post YOU just quoted is exactly the reason why adding Mercenaries SHOULDN'T happen. Everything about mercenaries is everything that GGG said was a PROBLEM in the patch that you quoted. It's what predicated and nessecitated that post in the first place. Starting anew....with PoE 2 Last edited by cowmoo275#3095 on Sep 22, 2025, 11:25:35 PM
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Oh, and if you honestly believe that rampant unchecked power creep results in MORE build diversity.........I don't think you've ever played PoE a day in your life. Or ever read and actually understood a single patch note.
The leagues with the WORST explosions of power, have almost exclusively ALSO had the absolute worst build diversity. The minion domination of the early 3s, the aura stacking of the pre-mana reservation nerf, the dominance of basically 3 alt-quality skills for the entire league that alt qualities were introduced, there are countless examples. Crucible league....my god. It's through BALANCE and forethought that build diversity thrives: NOT with introducing and keeping broken content which has already been proven to favor pretty much ONE build archetype about 3x as much as any other build. Starting anew....with PoE 2 Last edited by cowmoo275#3095 on Sep 22, 2025, 11:34:22 PM
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Community, how would you feel if, instead of using a mercenary, you could bring in a second one of your own characters—scaled exactly to the time, budget, and effort you’ve invested in them? These characters can be automated (we’ve already seen a similar concept in the Hall of Grandmasters map).
On one hand, this would open the door to even crazier combinations. On the other, I think we’d see fewer setups running two pure damage dealers, and Doryani's Prototype would probably fall out of use, especially alongside some of the other interactions people have already pointed out. At the same time, this second character would still take up a party slot and come with all the pros and cons of adding another actual player. I totally get the players who say mercs are broken as they are, and I also get the ones who say they’re the best thing to ever happen—because for solo players, the game really did get a lot more fun. I think this approach could grow into a proper feature. It would be just as impactful as adding another real player to the party, without breaking balance. As a sort of “cost,” the companion could consume one map portal each time they enter. As for rewards, even just having them pick up gold would already be nice. If they could also loot specific items (like currency), that would be perfect. The real downside I see is the need to play through the campaign at least twice if you want a “partner.” But let’s be honest — we often end up creating several characters per league anyway, and right now we can only play them one at a time. This feature could be unlocked after finishing the campaign. As a softer alternative, there could be a progression system that lets you access it from level one, so you don’t have to run through the story again just for this (though the 2nd option is way harder to make). I’m convinced it would boost long-term engagement over the course of a league, which would benefit every aspect of the game. Anyway, I’m open to all kinds of criticism, and I’d really appreciate it if you support the idea with a positive comment. All the best to everyone. Last edited by downthetunnels#7946 on Sep 23, 2025, 6:30:56 AM
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A lot of good points in this thread, but you guys need to have more of a marketing viewpoint towards league launch instead of a beancounter "i'm stuck in the numbers" viewpoint.
All ARPGs are cyclical player retention now with near-zero player attention span (thanks streamers), so imagine presenting this kind of league: -GGG: hey guys look at this cool new league where we are significantly decreasing player power across the board to present a more difficult playing experience -Players: ok, but we're going to have like a bigger variety of things to play and try to compensate? -GGG: not really -Players: ok, but we're going to have like better loot drops? -GGG: no all ground loot will still be terrible -Players: can you at least make the uniques less terrible? -GGG: uniques are fine -Players: maybe a bunch of QOL? -GGG: hey it took us 13 years for mass-ID of items -Players: so what's the selling points of this league? -GGG: PRIDE AND ACCOMPLISHMENT (thanks EA) |
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" Here's the problem: The benefit of such a thing, even the 50% merc, far outscales ANY penalty that can be inflicted in the current system. So this offer of a 100% merc...only makes that 2x or more of a worse situation. It has been demonstrated for YEARS just how powerful "party play" is within PoE skill, buff, and gearing systems. It is probably one of the top 3 complaints EVER in the history of these forums. Both in terms of loot, and in terms of what you can "get away with" when you have even a dedicated aurabot kind of support. You are absolutely right: people wouldn't go for 2dps....because that has never been the problem. Our dps alone on a decent build with BiS or near-BiS gear far outstrips the game balance. It makes no sense to then get a second dps dealer: you want utility so that your own dps can skyrocket on WAY LESS INVESTMENT or vice versa. A 50% merc doesn't translate to "You are 1.5x as powerful"......it is actually far MORE than that overall, with entire systems of character building being totally negated by this existence of a secondary build. Here's the problem with the whole idea that "solo players did get a lot more fun".....its true ONLY right now. ONLY within mercenary league. And it won't last, its been proven time and time and time again. It is EXTREMELY FUN to mess around with sudden massive amounts of power: that isn't in denial. But the trouble comes when that type of power becomes "Normalized", which it WILL if added to the core. Think about the various systems and levels that have been "normalized" throughout the years of development in this game. Ex: You think those same solo players would have the same opinion of mercenaries if 1) monsters were rebalanced to counteract their newfound power. This is literally how EVERY new league begins....balance changes according to the new OVERALL environment. 2) Mercenaries were rebalanced so as to be damn near useless at low-mid levels of investment a la running T17 maps pre-merc league. That's the likely way mercs would be introduced, if at all. 3) Mercenaries provided such an extensive power boost to party play, that the trade market becomes even more lopsided than it has ever been before: dominated by the few who can maximize a new 12-man norm. The only reason it is so well received RIGHT NOW is because the balance is off. Wildly off. Harvest-y off. History tells us it will not and cannot remain that way. People have FUN playing games with cheat codes on such as god mode, or unlimited ammo, or 10x aura small charms a la D2. But what does that eventually lead to? Massive, complete and utter burnout and trashing of any future game development. The initial feeling of too much power is VERY FUN, but its probably the most fleeting feeling you can have in ANY game, across any genre. Starting anew....with PoE 2 Last edited by cowmoo275#3095 on Sep 23, 2025, 2:06:09 PM
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NGL I hated them at 1st but now I don't want them to go. Especially for SSF, they just feel nice to have around depending on the build you play + you get extra things to work towards like gearing them up as well.
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" I appreciate your detailed response - sharing your concerns, pointing out the current state of the game, and comparing it with other titles. I wouldn’t want to see build diversity restricted or PoE forced into rigid limits either. I completely agree that the support + damage dealer combo is a winning formula. That’s exactly why we’ve been seeing aurabot (AB) paired with mf / meta archetypes for so long: it speeds up runs and, in turn, boosts profit per unit of time. Just to clarify: my suggestion is about letting a second character you’ve leveled be available to play as a merc, but with the same restrictions real players have. This would simply use the game’s existing party size limit and isn’t aimed at the current situation - it’s more of a forward-looking idea that would allow to address some of the issues we are facing currently. If the community likes it and GGG takes notice, perhaps it could become part of the game. At the end of the day, the studio wants the game to stay popular and profitable, while we as players just want it to stay fun. I think this idea could make the game a little more accessible without reducing its depth. Every skill point would still matter, the leveling and upgrading gear would remain the most important part of progression. That’s why I feel there’s room for this kind of solution. And again - thanks for being open and sharing your perspective. Every opinion must be taken into account. There’s just one point I don’t fully agree with: I can’t accept the idea that adding a support is cheaper than investing in a fully built character. In the case of AB, ever since clusters were introduced it has consistently been one of the most expensive archetypes. Without heavy investment it’s fragile as it just doesn’t have many defence levels, which makes it far too squishy compared to other well-rounded builds. If you want to play it safely, the cost exceeds one mirror, while gearing it properly takes well over five. On all your other points, I’m fully aligned. From my side, I’d rather suggest an alternative approach to the current meta - one that I believe could improve both engagement and retention for players. Last edited by downthetunnels#7946 on Sep 23, 2025, 4:23:05 PM
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