Expirience loss is ridiculous on high levels

Non-mandatory context:

After some inner debate with my hardcore pro-losing exp friend i tried to figure out main sources of my frustration with this mechanic and some solution. Here's what i've got:

Main frustration reason: Losing more than you get.
Issue that you can end up with less exp after the map than before it. Looking at your exp bar having 8% less exp than you had on entering demotivates from playing so fucking much it's unbearable. With higher level this becomes 10x worse, because 1 death means that you lose progress of 10+ maps of full clear. 2 deaths on random map mode you didn't read out of 200+ mods you've checked can be worth a day of progress for you

Second frustration: Portal fear
I play both softcore and hardcore. And actually prefer HC in a lot of ways. And one of the things you feel the difference in those is fear of taking the opportunity. On softcore losing exp if you want to level up makes you afraid to utilize more than 1 portal. if you die once on a map with even low risk of dying again you will feel the need to just stop the map because you can lose exp again. On softcore i want to have no fear of trying out anything or atleast have it in the least possible amount.

Third frustration: "Pinnacle content bandade"
It feels random to which content is exp penalty free and which isn't. For example why is king of the mist boss fight can get you exp losing and why atziri-uber atziri isn't. I wanted to farm the feared maven invitation, but uber atziri can make me die to one shot so i got feared out of it, i guess. IMO, if GGG goes with this approach of having pinnacle content not be locked by exp losing it should apply to all pinnacle content, such as ubers, maps like uber cortex and uber atziri map.

Fourth frustration: feeling forced into meta
exp punishment on death isn't equal to everyone. Yeah you lose same amount on death, but amount of deaths is tied to both your skill and your build. It's "losers lose more" type of situation. If we take two players of equal skill, one is playing meta and one os playing garage build, the second one will die way more than the first one due to the nature of the game(getting oneshotted and only then understanding what killed you)
This makes feel of meta in me personally get on me, i want to keep playing my garage glacial hammer of aurashattering, but i feel punished for it.

UUUUUUUUU
That's the main points of frustration for me. But i also got my head thinking about some solutions. Maybe i'll hit that exalt slam and maybe Mark Robux bux will agree with implementing one of my ideas.

Solution one: Map based exp losing limitation
Make it that on a map you can only lose exp that you got on that exact map. That way player can never get into negative exp gain, but can lose exp for death if devs want. this is solution i like personally so it's the first. the only issue i see technically is that you need to track which map gave the exp in some way

Solution two: More savpoints.
Exp bar is splitted into sections of 5% of a level. why not make it that each 5% of a level exp is locked same way it locked on level ups. This will lower the maximum of negative exp player can get to 5% instead of 99% possible to lose right now.



Aftercomments:
First: I know about omn that lowers exp lost. It's still a ruff punishment that means you need to dump some currency just to not get punished that hard. Literally "create a problem to sell a solution" type of shit
Second: I'm not against mechanic of losing exp entirely, but right now, from a new player perspctive it feels like ass, plays like ass, and the only people unironically supporting current way of it are using reddit
Third: The "It's an extra risk for a player to die to not body the map" is stupid. You already have portal limitation to hard limit amount of tries on each map and have no exp punishment in campaign, if that's the only reason you think it should be the way it is - it implies that exp mechanic is redundant and usless, you can just lower amount of portals more if you want to punish death.
Fourth: sorry for any mistakes, i'm esl, lazy and my e key sometimes dies, rue is a cat

Losing exp to dying is intended to feel unpleasant. It adds a sense of tension to the game, and creates a feeling of accomplishment when you reach post 95 levels.

Also, the exp loss on death rewards careful planning, economic mastery and good play.

I feel like it is an integral part of the PoE experience, and in a good place.

Fortunately, it's not necessary to level past 95 to complete any part of the game's content, which was an intelligent move on GGG's part. Because of their foresight, nothing you might want to do is gated behind a maxed level character.

If you are having trouble, I recommend using omens, tanking down your build, and running safer content. Alternatively, you can save currency and pay for a ROTA, which is a pretty safe way to reach level 100.

I hope this helps.

Hello. Thaks for seriously answering. While i understand your logic and arguments i personally disagree on state of exp losing mechanics right now and will try to do a little debating. not to disprove you but to lay out my opinion as a new player, compared to your .

Point one: It feels of frustrating and unpleasant to add feeling of tension and accomplisment

While frustration and displease can add tension it's not always the case. And i think in current state it doesn't do that.

Why: Feeling of tension is directly tied to the content you do. And punishing mechanics can have a place, right now even you in your response say me to do safer content on tankier variation of my build, which is decreasing tension in it's core. That issue is the reason why you do not lose exp on pinnacle bosses but it's not exclusive to it. for example i wanted to farm breach-delirium-beyond for my leveling originally, but my pc dies when i do a strike and there is 50 percent chance i will get mobbed in lag. Because of that instead of playing this strat i liked i was playing safer one - synth maven farm just to not lose exp.

I agree with it giving sense of accomplishment tho. That's why i prefer a rework of exp penalty and not it removal.

Point two: exp loss on death rewards careful planning, economic mastery and good play

Why disagree: exp loss isn't rewarding anyone, it's a punisment mechanic. Punching loser down is a benefit for winner, but not a reward. Leveling up is reward for planning and farming properly, exp loss is an opportunity cost for trying something riskier for ppl who care about exp.


Point three: exp punishment is integral part of poe

Sure, i agree. i'm not against mechanic entirely, my issue as a new person who tries to get to level 100 is that on level 99 you lose 2 hours of natural progress in a second by just dying once. The most frustrating part for me is that cost of opportunity to get 1% of exp is 10% exp decrease, one map strips you of progress you've done before. It feels like you spent hour to get 100 bucks and then on a break lost the whole hundred because you slipped and dropped it into the open street sewer

Solutions to issue:
Omen - spend currency to not lose so much. basically - pay to lower the tension with your currency (which is equal to your time). I personally do not like it because it's not a fix for losers losing more situation, but it's not that bad
Build and strat changes: I did it and it's the only solution i actually like, except for strat changes, because it is stricting my freedom in what to play
Exp service: Any boost service is in it's core avoidance of mechanic, you basically say that i should pay someone to play this aspect of the game for me, i think it tells on the fact that it is a problem.

I agree with you on anything post lvl 95 being not needed being a good thing. Because if it was i would've quit this league on week one.

"

Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

Losing exp to dying is intended to feel unpleasant. It adds a sense of tension to the game, and creates a feeling of accomplishment when you reach post 95 levels.

Also, the exp loss on death rewards careful planning, economic mastery and good play.

I feel like it is an integral part of the PoE experience, and in a good place.

Fortunately, it's not necessary to level past 95 to complete any part of the game's content, which was an intelligent move on GGG's part. Because of their foresight, nothing you might want to do is gated behind a maxed level character.

If you are having trouble, I recommend using omens, tanking down your build, and running safer content. Alternatively, you can save currency and pay for a ROTA, which is a pretty safe way to reach level 100.

I hope this helps.

But it isn't in a good place rn. The only thing the xp-penalty does is rob you of progress, disrespect your time and make you feel like shit. It doesn't add "Tension" it adds annoyance when 95% of deaths are oneshots from random modifiers interacting weirdly.
If you feel like having your time disrespected and feeling like is an integral part of the PoE experience then the PoE experience is basically crap.

The whole xp-loss mechanic does nothing else than create a market for levelling carries and omens. It doesn't otherwise add anything else to the game.

I say that as someone who has reached level 100 before, it is not an achievement, you don't feel any sense of accomplishment for having reached level 100. Only thing you feel is the knowledge that you could have gotten here much sooner if GGG respected your time and actually adapted their game to modern standards of design.
Frankly, i know not a single game, that still exists to this day, which has an xp-loss penalty this harsh. Because a 10% xp-loss penalty translates to essentially loosing the last 10 hours of your life and a potentialy 60% loss penalty on any given map. Which will result in the following, you closing the map immediately since you now know there is something in there that could potentially kill you and cost you literally 10+ hours.
In fact, thinking the XP-Penalty to it's logical conclusions means never trying anything even the tiniest bit risky.
Fight takes longer than 30 seconds? Better alt+f4 out
Enemy has more than 4 lines of modifiers? Better alt+f4 out
Blight encounter is being weird? Better quit
Delirium is getting more difficult than expected? Better quit
Ritual is weird? Better quit

Now what does this mechanic actually add that is positive? Tension? From what?
The fact that 99% of enemies die within 2 seconds or they don't and in return instakill you?
Making Defenses necessary? That would mean anyone who reaches level 100 instantly changes their build into full dps, since the penalty is gone. Spoiler, they don't.
It makes level 100 an achievement? Spoiler, it isn't, it is merely a huge load of tedium, by that logic playing cookie clicker is a massive achievement, since that is tedium cranked to 11
It means at level 100 you have mastered build crafting/the economy/the game? Spoiler, you haven't and it doesn't.


It rewards careful play and planning? Yes it does, it rewards it to such a huge degree that it makes people afraid to try anything new, which is a huge problem for an ARPG and really any game in general, where the whole point is TRYING OUT NEW THINGS.

You can see that with previous leagues when the xp-loss-prevention for bosses wasn't a thing. People would be like: Oh i am at 50% to the next level, better not run exarch because his balls will instakill me 90% of the time and the invitation is worth a divine. Better sell it, take the divine and wait till next level before i try the boss

Your reply means it is adding tension and how else are they going to test your character? Its the one of the only levers left to pull.

Build some defences, play better or reduce your risk.

There are multiple ways to bypass it already if you just want 100 but you could you know... accept that you won't get to 100. Does it actually matter? Its very rare to see anyone complaining about the xp loss who is also pushing their character to the limit instead its viewed as an inevitable fact they will get to 100.

This was disscussed so many times, practically every day someone create a complaining post...

Guys, before 99 lvl you don't need rota / omens / too much time / play superdefensive. You can "TRY NEW THINGS" and don't lose much if you fail.

At 99, you can continue play agressively, because 1 skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything. If you decide to reach lvl 100 - switch some dmg passives to defensive one's and buy dozen of omens, which reduce penalty almost to zero. Is it really so hard?

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

Frankly, i know not a single game, that still exists to this day, which has an xp-loss penalty this harsh.

I know some games without exp penalty, but it requres 5x more time to reach max lvl, than in PoE. Is this much better? I doubt it.

"

felix0808#2550 wrote:

This was disscussed so many times, practically every day someone create a complaining post...

Guys, before 99 lvl you don't need rota / omens / too much time / play superdefensive. You can "TRY NEW THINGS" and don't lose much if you fail.

At 99, you can continue play agressively, because 1 skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything. If you decide to reach lvl 100 - switch some dmg passives to defensive one's and buy dozen of omens, which reduce penalty almost to zero. Is it really so hard?

"

jakob601#6439 wrote:

Frankly, i know not a single game, that still exists to this day, which has an xp-loss penalty this harsh.

I know some games without exp penalty, but it requres 5x more time to reach max lvl, than in PoE. Is this much better? I doubt it.

Yes it is. Because ultimately your "Takes 5x more time" becomes irrelevant when you also factor in the fact you loose xp, because that means there is in fact no upper limit to how much time it might take

Also your initial take is "Someone complains about it daily, so obviously it can be ignored" instead of "Someone complains about it daily and presumably quitting over it, let's fix this"?

"

Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

Your reply means it is adding tension and how else are they going to test your character? Its the one of the only levers left to pull.

Build some defences, play better or reduce your risk.

There are multiple ways to bypass it already if you just want 100 but you could you know... accept that you won't get to 100. Does it actually matter? Its very rare to see anyone complaining about the xp loss who is also pushing their character to the limit instead its viewed as an inevitable fact they will get to 100.

They could test the character by adding actually difficult challenges? No hit Sanctum for original sin comes to mind, some of the invitations, some of the ubers and other bosses. You know, things that actually require game knowledge, gameplay mechanics and all the things that make a game "challenging" instead of "annoying"

find a different game, xp loss is minimal and can be gained back after a couple of maps. you guys have it so easy nowadays with omens and choosing content to run, play a tankier build and stop standing still.

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This was disscussed so many times, practically every day someone create a complaining post

So maybe it's an actual issue if people have a painpoint on it

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how else are they going to test your character?

I dunno, by killing it without 10% exp loss? Exp loss isn't a test to your character

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There are multiple ways to bypass it already

I love this usage of word "bypass". Seems we all agree that the best way to confront exp loss is to not engage with mechanic

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before 99 lvl you don't need rota / omens / too much time / play superdefensive

You shouldn't need all of this except maybe playing safe IMO. especially ROTA

"

Does it actually matter? Its very rare to see anyone complaining about the xp loss who is also pushing their character to the limit instead its viewed as an inevitable fact they will get to 100.

if it doesn't matter then why arguing against making it less punishing, it doesn't matter after all.

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skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything

Then why make it so punishing on death to get it if it doesn't matter

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I know some games without exp penalty, but it requres 5x more time to reach max lvl

How about not having both. Seems that with bosses it worked

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xp loss is minimal and can be gained back after a couple of maps. you guys have it so easy nowadays with omens and choosing content to run, play a tankier build and stop standing still.

"wounds from bat beating are minimal and can be healed back after a couple of kisses. you guys have it so easy nowadays with helmets and without rotten nails in the bat, stay at home if you don't want to get beaten with a bat"