This league is GROSS. Not playing it.

"

Felix44#4475 wrote:

Pretty sure no one ever said Cleave is broken and actually OP. Cleave =/= all melee skills. I mean, anything can work with enough investment but...why would you want to pick CLEAVE of all things...?

First it was heavy strike. Then I made several builds that disproved them all.


Now its cleave and sweep.


Its just goal post shifting unfortunately rather than any actual constructive discussion.


Its basically just opinions stemming from players who follow guides. And if there is no guide than the skill/build/archetype must be "bad"


Or if it is not on ninja or a low percentage, it must be "bad"


Not a game design issue unfortunately. But a player expression issue.

"

Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

"

Felix44#4475 wrote:

Pretty sure no one ever said Cleave is broken and actually OP. Cleave =/= all melee skills. I mean, anything can work with enough investment but...why would you want to pick CLEAVE of all things...?

First it was heavy strike. Then I made several builds that disproved them all.


Now its cleave and sweep.


Its just goal post shifting unfortunately rather than any actual constructive discussion.


Its basically just opinions stemming from players who follow guides. And if there is no guide than the skill/build/archetype must be "bad"


Or if it is not on ninja or a low percentage, it must be "bad"


Not a game design issue unfortunately. But a player expression issue.

I completely agree with everything you said. Any skill can be made viable. Some will require more investment than others. Some will outperform, others will underperform.

My point was, if you are a player that clearly doesn't have the knowledge to pull off a difficult skill, why on earth would you insist to play CLEAVE, of all the melee skills out there.

I'm not all knowledgeable but I know enough to say that, by comparison, Cleave is not a good skill. Now I am very open to being proven wrong - if you have a Cleave build (or a Heavy Strike build for that matter) that can do the same as any meta skill at the same investment, I will put "Mashgesture#2912 has proven me wrong" in my signature and wear it forever because I sincerely don't see how it can :)

That is in no way equivalent to "it's a bad, unplayable skill".

Heavy Strike WAS shit, it got MASSIVELY augmented by Overextertion - who could have thought that a support that grants upwards of 100% more damage might make a difference?

it still has garbage clear speed but it at least has SOMETHING going for it - the single target is solid, it is a functional example of 'good at A, bad at B'



Meanwhile melee skills that are not slams nor strikes are left in the dust. GGG added Rage (universal), Banners (extremely unsatisfying to use) and Warcries to 'fix melee'. sadly - there are skills that do no benefit from Warcries much if at all - these skills are not played because they are still in 3.20 damage zone

certain individuals debated that, even made threats 'that they will play them and show you all!'.

still waiting for that, I really want to experience the enlightenment that happens when chads actually produce something more than words

"

Felix44#4475 wrote:

[
I completely agree with everything you said. Any skill can be made viable. Some will require more investment than others. Some will outperform, others will underperform.

My point was, if you are a player that clearly doesn't have the knowledge to pull off a difficult skill, why on earth would you insist to play CLEAVE, of all the melee skills out there.

I'm not all knowledgeable but I know enough to say that, by comparison, Cleave is not a good skill. Now I am very open to being proven wrong - if you have a Cleave build (or a Heavy Strike build for that matter) that can do the same as any meta skill at the same investment, I will put "Mashgesture#2912 has proven me wrong" in my signature and wear it forever because I sincerely don't see how it can :)

That is in no way equivalent to "it's a bad, unplayable skill".

You hit the nail on the head!

"well it cant do what this other build can do"

Which doesnt really mean much as that has been true since this game was released.

Just in the next reply alone we see another goalpost shift. Now its just warcries being the issue or rage. So if someone was to make a warcry build with sweep or cleave or it uses rage.

It wouldnt "count" now.


Then it would be "oh you just used bleed"
"Oh you just converted to fire"
"Oh you just scaled it in a way I didnt think of" (wont admit this one)
"Oh you can only do 15m damage but x build does 100m damage..."

Etc. etc.


Its never really ending. And full of hyperbole and changing views. Its like saying 90% of the league is wander. But not when I say it is, just give it a couple days, and then it still not be true in a couple days later either.



Agreed though. Just because a skill cant do what the meta does, doesnt make something good or bad. The meta in this game is mostly defined around what guides were made. Not necessarily their power level or utility.

"

Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

The meta in this game is mostly defined around what guides were made. Not necessarily their power level or utility.

Man, ain't this the truth. RF is objectively terrible, but it remains incredibly popular for exactly one reason:

It's got the single best guide for any skill in the game.

Even in leagues where it's incredibly bad at the signature mechanic (Sanctum comes to mind) it's one of the top played builds.

But I'll bite, Sid: what do I win if I actually play Sweep through the endgame?

No, people play RF because it is lazy, not because of some guide.

"

Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

No, people play RF because it is lazy, not because of some guide.

Because it has a guide to it lol.


Lazy isnt just in gameplay but also in the planning and gearing portion of it.

It's literally stack life, life regen, max fire res and less DoT taken, how stupid do you need to be to fuck it up

"

Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

It's literally stack life, life regen, max fire res and less DoT taken,

Missing quite a bit in here.

"

Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

It's literally stack life, life regen, max fire res and less DoT taken, how stupid do you need to be to fuck it up

I'll be honest, the only reason I don't like RF is because its existence allows GGG to avoid buffing some skills.

When was the last time anyone's taken Scorching Ray seriously as a skill? The last time anyone's made a build where it stands on its own merits was Mathil, but that was a long time ago. Now it only serves to weaken enemy fire resistance so RF can kill bosses.