"Meaningful Combat" Is Anti-ARPG

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Xzorn#7046 wrote:

How terrible misguided.

You're using the 3rd entry into the genre as it's staple? Not Diablo 1, Nox or Revenant? What exactly makes you think Diablo 2 is a genre defining game over Diablo 1 which birthed it?

(checks character customization in D1)

Oh wow you can raise your strength, or you can raise your dexterity, your can raise your vitality, OR you can raise your intelligence. AND there's like 60 uniques to choose from, most of which offer different damage numbers.

I played diablo 1 as a kid. The "meaningful combat" there is either you standing in a chokepoint spamming autoattack (not like there's much choice) OR in the absense of such chokepoint you backpedal for enemies to form a line and attack you one by one.

It was a good game and i hate diablo 2 for not being diablo 1 but no, it's not a genre defining game. Diablo 2 and Path of Exile 1 are.

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Telzen#2427 wrote:

No, even before they spit it the game was still called PoE 2. It was basically like a new game that still had the content from the old game in it. And anyway they saw a chance to make a new game and have it be everything they wanted PoE 1 to be without all that left over baggage and took the chance. They are now different games, there is no reason to make them play the same. And if they did play the same, PoE 1 really would be dropped. Which is what you guys like to doom about, so maybe watch what you wish for.

False.

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It was first announced on November 15, 2019, during ExileCon 2019 as a major "Version 4.0" update to the first game with a new act campaign and major overhauls to core game mechanics and graphics.[2] In ExileCon 2023, it was announced Path of Exile 2 will now be its own separate game that will be supported alongside PoE1

Source: https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Path_of_Exile_2

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Xzorn#7046 wrote:

How terrible misguided.

You're using the 3rd entry into the genre as it's staple? Not Diablo 1, Nox or Revenant? What exactly makes you think Diablo 2 is a genre defining game over Diablo 1 which birthed it?

(checks character customization in D1)

Oh wow you can raise your strength, or you can raise your dexterity, your can raise your vitality, OR you can raise your intelligence. AND there's like 60 uniques to choose from, most of which offer different damage numbers.

I played diablo 1 as a kid. The "meaningful combat" there is either you standing in a chokepoint spamming autoattack (not like there's much choice) OR in the absense of such chokepoint you backpedal for enemies to form a line and attack you one by one.

It was a good game and i hate diablo 2 for not being diablo 1 but no, it's not a genre defining game. Diablo 2 and Path of Exile 1 are.

There's a lot more to it and end-game would give PoE1 a run for it's money on time investment.

Your conclusion makes me think you never went all in on a character like many do with PoE. For instance Warriors always running around with Stormshield. Not actually BiS because Warriors already have innate Faster Block. The BiS shield took a long time because you had to increase it's durability which was a Godly Shield of the Tiger. Giving 20 more AC, HP, no extra damage taken.

Rogues made formidable melee characters thanks to their Dex though they lack the Warrior's ability to Crit and need a shield with Faster Block. The same was true for a Warrior using a Bow. Rogues did not need faster attack for bows. Nothing was exclusive except for Sorcerer's cast faster.

Both gear and spells could compensate differences and this leads me to question how much time you played the game because a high end character doesn't use doors or walk back. Warriors Tele-Kill enemies with their level 20 Teleport skill which requires a lot of shrine hunting. They can also spam stone curse like it's nothing. You still need to side step and not get yourself too overwhelmed due to cast speed. But you don't need doors and you don't need to run.


I'm not saying Diablo 1 is amazing combat but the game is more complex than most think and it has features that are now alien to ARPGs like using cover, side stepping and interacting with the environment. If you like that sorta thing. Zoom Zoom isn't going to give it to you.

Oh. Not to mention the itemization was much better than Diablo 2. I wrote an older topic about that and how Magic Find in addition to increasing the ilvl from bosses just ruined Diablo 2. We had easy Teleport in Diablo 1 and yet we never spam + reset Diablo because starting in hell and moving down with more rolls was simply better for drops. Something I wish GGG would learn.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

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Telzen#2427 wrote:

No, even before they spit it the game was still called PoE 2. It was basically like a new game that still had the content from the old game in it. And anyway they saw a chance to make a new game and have it be everything they wanted PoE 1 to be without all that left over baggage and took the chance. They are now different games, there is no reason to make them play the same. And if they did play the same, PoE 1 really would be dropped. Which is what you guys like to doom about, so maybe watch what you wish for.

False.

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It was first announced on November 15, 2019, during ExileCon 2019 as a major "Version 4.0" update to the first game with a new act campaign and major overhauls to core game mechanics and graphics.[2] In ExileCon 2023, it was announced Path of Exile 2 will now be its own separate game that will be supported alongside PoE1

Source: https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Path_of_Exile_2

Well you know some of us were actually here when it happened and we don't have to look at the wiki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2VRRSVgCL4

Look at this video posted on Nov 15, 2019. What does Chris call the game? Path of Exile 2. Haha you are wrong.

Does it really matter what it was called in 2019? Right now GGG is calling it Path of Exile 2, and the direction is pretty obvious - slower, more deliberate, more "meaningful" combat.

If you want to go 400% movespeed and vacuum a whole map into your loot filter, PoE1 is right there and still does that extremely well. PoE2 is trying to be a different game, not PoE1 with nicer grass.

Also, it's Early Access. This thing is still getting pulled in different directions patch to patch, so pretending the current pace is some eternal law of nature is a bit early. Let it cook. Or don't - but then at least be mad at the actual game, not the name on the 2019 trailer.

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Xzorn#7046 wrote:

There's a lot more to it and end-game would give PoE1 a run for it's money on time investment.

Your conclusion makes me think you never went all in on a character like many do with PoE. For instance Warriors always running around with Stormshield. Not actually BiS because Warriors already have innate Faster Block. The BiS shield took a long time because you had to increase it's durability which was a Godly Shield of the Tiger. Giving 20 more AC, HP, no extra damage taken.

Rogues made formidable melee characters thanks to their Dex though they lack the Warrior's ability to Crit and need a shield with Faster Block. The same was true for a Warrior using a Bow. Rogues did not need faster attack for bows. Nothing was exclusive except for Sorcerer's cast faster.

Both gear and spells could compensate differences and this leads me to question how much time you played the game because a high end character doesn't use doors or walk back. Warriors Tele-Kill enemies with their level 20 Teleport skill which requires a lot of shrine hunting. They can also spam stone curse like it's nothing. You still need to side step and not get yourself too overwhelmed due to cast speed. But you don't need doors and you don't need to run.

You're right. I played it as a kid so idk how hardcore Diablo 1 fans play, but from what you said, i'm not impressed and it certainly wouldn't give PoE1 a run for its money in basically anything.

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I'm not saying Diablo 1 is amazing combat but the game is more complex than most think

There's a reason most people aren't aware how complex D1 is. It's because you can beat the game by just stacking one parameter and spamming autoattack at chokepoints.

I have been saying this since 0.1.

You cannot have "souls-like" and "aRPG" in the same sentence.

It just does not work. It creates an exhausting gameplay loop that is not satisfying and grinds you down. Is this the new meaning behind grinding gear games?

Put simply, imagine you had to kill Radahn 100 times to progress your gear/character. You would have a different idea about how good dark souls is.

I lasted 10 minutes in 0.3 and couldnt stick another 10 in this patch. Game is an absolute slog.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

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Oinkaments#6390 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

Do you really want to grind hours on end rolling, dodging, parrying, being "methodical and tactical", like seriously, all that for hours and hours?

No, absolutely not. Fuck that.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It boggles the mind that the meaningful combat crowd is so anti-ARPG. You come here, demand the game and genre to be something else

That's because they were lied to by the studio and they hold a grudge towards them because GGG told them it would be a different experience.

And here we are, in this polarized state, and it's going to get much worse, because apparently GGG has decided to pander to the slow pacers once again with 0.4. But it won't be enough to satisfy them, so buckle up your belt, because if they do commit to this fully, this game is going to absolute hell.

Notice how almost 20 hours and this thread doesn't even have a single reply from the "Meaningful combat" crowd.

Their silence is deafening when confronted with well crafted argument, lol.

So if people working or enjoying the league and not checking this site it's a clear sign for you that they would not say anything about it. Also would you mind showing me the well crafted arguments you are referring to? Cause I seem to see any...

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Ondrugs#1147 wrote:

So if people working or enjoying the league and not checking this site it's a clear sign for you that they would not say anything about it. Also would you mind showing me the well crafted arguments you are referring to? Cause I seem to see any...

Do you have any? Because I don't see any from you too.

Just posting to say for poe2 I want the zoom zoom scalability, not the slow combo play.