FOCUS ON YOUR VISION - ENGAGING COMBAT!!! SUGGESTIONS!!!

Part 1 - What is the vision?

The VISION is to make the next gen ARGP of our time. This will be achieved in the first step with more engaging/combo (no 1 Button smash builds), risky/evaluating combat - ECREC


Part 2 - Why this vision?

Lets begin simple: Why we are making games? Because of FUN. FUN is the main premisse overall and what thrives us playing games.
I also enjoy one button smasher builds, they make FUN for a moment but not the MOST FUN the whole time. MOST FUN is to block/dodge/use a tactical skill in the right moment and then counterattack after that and smack your foe and see the outcome or combo skills together in the right direction in the right moment to outcombat your enemy.
This is the moment where my hairs stand up and energy flows through my brain and body and my ADRENALINE pulses.


Part 3 - Suggestions

YES it is no FUN to be overwhelmed by foes when you try engage in a more tactical playstyle build.
YES it is no FUN to block a hit and counterattack or use eg. escape shot or channel a skill for 2 seconds when in the same time your onebuttonsmasher friend is clearing three screens of monsters.
These are the so called FUN BUT NOT EFFECTIVE skills - FBUTNOTEFF.
To be effective they lack in kill and movement speed.

So ECREC is in the game to some extend but it fails in the realization to get the MOST FUN out of it.



SUGGESTIONS to emphasize and reward ECREC more:

1. Introduce a new mechanic called ADRENALINE - ADR
Every time you succesfully use a FBUTNOTEFF skill you get a stack of ADR.
1 stack of ADRENALINE gives you
- 5% more skill speed
- 5% more movement speed
- 5% global defenses
- 5% more damage
straight to the bank. This would be FUN! You can balance it afterwards any time...
Marauder is the perfect class to introduce ADR and establish it as a base game mechanic and to not make the mistake to make the marauder just a brainless button smasher class.

2. Make bosses and specific enemies easier to kill with a ECREC playstyle
Would be awesome if you can get down a boss faster with ECRE playstyle then a 1 button smasher build!

3. Make bosses generally harder
Most thrilling moment in the game: Can you survive the boss of this map with your setup and skills? Time to test and risk it and then you smash him down with 1 button in 3 seconds. This is NO FUN.

4. More Weapon set Points
I'm loving them for giving more playstyle variants to the game and with it more ways to get in a ECREC playstyle.
Give 10 more points all classes baseline and allow to get keypoints und jewels with weapon set points!

5. More Power from skillpoints
To further enhance engaging playstyle:
Reward careful/tactical and strategic decisions more, especially when you want to choose your skillpoints to fit a engaging playstyle. Give them more weight.


6. Alternative game modes that reward engaging combat
from Mav2125#5750:

"

Keep the game how it is and just add alternative game modes to obtain the same rate of loot. Add alternative sources of loot that avoid benefitting a never ending cycle of moving faster and killing faster. The problem is the central loop of gameplay in the endgame is to clear a map. This can be done faster and faster so why be slow? Even if it could be fun, why do it slower? So you just leave maps in the game how they are. Keep em a bit balanced to tide off the crybabies , and start developing some type of other game mode for the endgame that doesn't reward those types of builds anymore than a kick punch backflip arrow build.

7. Nerf dodge rolling
from JarlaxleDaerthe#2435

"

Everything is telegraphed so painfully obvious and all you have to do is roll or move.
That's it.

This is right dodge rolling needs to be nerfed and for this way of mitigation should be the FBUTNOTEFF skills.


8. Make armour or evasion or ES more meaningful
from JarlaxleDaerthe#2435

"

You don't need armour or evasion or ES, just don't stand in the bad.

This is also right. To get FBUTNOTEFF skills working you need more mitigation from these defenses to roll out some engaging tactics (eg. channeling)



9. Put rare mob icons back in and even more tactical informations
from AintCare#6513

"

not to mention all the threads begging for rare mob icons to be put back in

This is true...even in more engaging playstyle this is a failure. It adds more to tactical gameplay and map running "smoothness" if you can see rare mobs. Here I would see even more potential: What if you can see more information of the monsters on minimap? Like seeing where are more or less and which rough type like projectile or melee kinds of.


10. Fix inconsistent boss powers
from Giamantis#6154

"

One thing I have seen is after the last update is people complaining about bosses in every map - I also see a lot of people asking for carries on act bosses. They can't do them, or don't want to. Presumably they were avoiding them and just spam clearing maps without them in the endgame. You could say the bosses are meaningful engaging combat, or at least intended to be - a stronger mob with mechanics to avoid and takes a bit longer to kill, perhaps needing different skills than you are clearing with. Would you want every mob to be like a boss fight?

Bosses "can" be FUN ;-) Bosses should be a fun and risky toughness challenge for your build and skills, but not as frustrating as it is in the momentary state of the game. This is the same issue as another thread called this problem out as "inconsistent boss powers". All bosses should be in the range of not being frustrating but not be killable without brain and in 10 seconds! Bosses should at least be easier to kill with an engaging approach.


11. Other ways of map improvements than 0.3.1
The map juicing in 0.3 was more engaging...searching and combining towers and approach them in a tactical way.


12. Voting for/against engaging combat
Let every POE1/2 streamer make a voting for/against engaging combat and consolidate the results and present them to GGG. This is needed because we all have seen that they want to go this way but don't know if they can risk it. Let them show our confidence!

Aspects of engaging combat to be clear:
- nerf dodge rolling and in the same time let other skills let do the job of dodging/blocking and mitigating damage
- NO slowdown of combat: The combat dont need to slow down for engaging combat!
There are ways too prevent this! Just the sequence, position and direction and so on is different
- Its the vision GGG held up in the initial EA release and its definitley accomplishable


13. Remove respec costs
from Pizzarugi#6258:

"

The truth of the matter is: Experimenting is expensive as fuck, buying gear, testing, then selling back for less than what you paid for, spending tons of gold respeccing passives, and of course the amount of time that needs to be invested for all of this.

This is soo true. I try to experiment with other builds which emphasize engaging tactical combat but the hurdles and investment to test and experiment wiht this is just too high. There shouldnt be a respec cost.




14. FOCUS ON YOUR VISION OF FUN
Can't say it enough we all are seeing your goal und thriving there and know that ECREC is the MOST FUN. Just held the vision up as always through all concepts of this game.





Thank You GGG for this! Great job, great game!

Guys let me know what you think and what other suggestions we can have! Please in constructive way!

Builds with more than one button are perfectly viable. Literally nothing is stopping you from playing one.

More difficulty in late endgame IS indeed needed, I agree. But, the rest of this just reads like incoherent ranting.

If you want a souls like go play one, this is POE.

"

Builds with more than one button are perfectly viable. Literally nothing is stopping you from playing one.

There is nothing against this but it comes down to this: Do you want to allow a one button smasher build be more than 200% effective than a more engaging playstyle? No this is not the vision of this game.

"

If you want a souls like go play one, this is POE.

This is the point what I have been waiting for: Poe2 should in the same way behold the ARPG element and not drift into a frustating soulslike. When the combat is more engaging and in the same time also capable of hacking and slashing to multiple foes is it more than a non enganging one button smasher. It is just MORE FUN.

I don't believe changing anything in particular about the skill system will affect anything. I think it's an issue at the core gameplay loop. Which in my eyes is an easy fix especially with the crybabies that want both poe 1 and poe 1 with better graphics and Count Geonor. Keep the game how it is and just add alternative game modes to obtain the same rate of loot. Add alternative sources of loot that avoid benefitting a never ending cycle of moving faster and killing faster. The problem is the central loop of gameplay in the endgame is to clear a map. This can be done faster and faster so why be slow? Even if it could be fun, why do it slower? So you just leave maps in the game how they are. Keep em a bit balanced to tide off the crybabies , and start developing some type of other game mode for the endgame that doesn't reward those types of builds anymore than a kick punch backflip arrow build. Leave that zippy crap as an option but make it obsolete and unnecessary in the new mode option and most people will realise that that core fast gameplay wasn't fun and just a means to an end which is to gain loot to keep up with a ever increasing market. I don't know a single person who would look at that GPU melting crap with no context and think "Yup. Ten thousand hours of that would be fun"

"

Keep the game how it is and just add alternative game modes to obtain the same rate of loot.

Actually good point. Other game modes that rewards more engaing combat is now on the list :-)

But also the problem comes down to this: You quit the game when you begin to fall asleep with your onebutton smasher build.
When the game emphasizes more on engaging combat which is in the same time also more variant then the game loop wouldnt feel as boring as you do it with a one button smasher build. Its not the solution to give more game modes to get more content for your one button smasher. The core gameplay is more important, the combat itself.

What does “Engaging combat” even mean? Can we hear a full explanation just once? Since people keep bringing up 1-button builds as a complaint, I guess “Engaging combat” must mean 2+ button builds? If that’s the case, then isn’t it already available right now? On top of that, the game actually rewards you for pressing extra buttons — more DPS and so on. So what exactly is the problem? That people prefer to play using just one button? Well, sorry, but most players enjoy zipping across the screen and pressing as few buttons as possible, because for them it’s way more fun than juggling 2–3–4–5 buttons, even if doing so gives higher DPS or other benefits. In the end, if “MORE FUN” for you is rolling and dodging, then just run through the campaign again or play a Souls-like. Why drag that crap into PoE2 endgame?

"

What does “Engaging combat” even mean?

Yes in some term you are right..engaging combat means more than pressing one button: Press more buttons in the right moment in the right direction in the right position would be an first definition. It sounds flat but makes MORE FUN to use more brain and evaluating skills and something like that :-)

Or you ask the AI:

Engaging combat in an ARPG combines real-time action with player skill, strategy, and character progression. It requires players to actively use their abilities, react to enemy movements, and manage cooldowns, rather than relying on static attacks. Core elements include dynamic and responsive controls, meaningful character growth through skills and loot, challenging enemies that demand strategic approaches, and satisfying feedback from successful actions like stuns or powerful attacks.
Key Aspects of Engaging Combat
Skill and Strategy: Engaging combat isn't just about pressing buttons; it requires players to develop their physical coordination and reaction times to effectively dodge, parry, and utilize skills.
Real-Time Action: Players directly control their character in real-time, executing attacks, defensive maneuvers, and special abilities in a fast-paced environment.
Meaningful Progression: The ability to level up, unlock new skills, and find powerful loot that enhances combat effectiveness keeps players invested and provides a sense of accomplishment.
Challenging Encounters: Players should face enemies with diverse attack patterns and behaviors that force them to adapt their strategies rather than simply overwhelming them with power.
Satisfying Feedback: The game should provide clear visual and auditory feedback for successful actions, such as staggering an enemy, landing a critical hit, or executing a powerful combo.
Synergy and Combos: Some engaging combat systems allow for creative combinations of skills or team-based attacks to unleash devastating effects, creating a dynamic flow to the fight.

"

JohnBlackstar#2650 wrote:

"

What does “Engaging combat” even mean?

Yes in some term you are right..engaging combat means more than pressing one button: Press more buttons in the right moment in the right direction in the right position would be an first definition. It sounds flat but makes MORE FUN to use more brain and evaluating skills and something like that :-)

Or you ask the AI:

Engaging combat in an ARPG combines real-time action with player skill, strategy, and character progression. It requires players to actively use their abilities, react to enemy movements, and manage cooldowns, rather than relying on static attacks. Core elements include dynamic and responsive controls, meaningful character growth through skills and loot, challenging enemies that demand strategic approaches, and satisfying feedback from successful actions like stuns or powerful attacks.
Key Aspects of Engaging Combat
Skill and Strategy: Engaging combat isn't just about pressing buttons; it requires players to develop their physical coordination and reaction times to effectively dodge, parry, and utilize skills.
Real-Time Action: Players directly control their character in real-time, executing attacks, defensive maneuvers, and special abilities in a fast-paced environment.
Meaningful Progression: The ability to level up, unlock new skills, and find powerful loot that enhances combat effectiveness keeps players invested and provides a sense of accomplishment.
Challenging Encounters: Players should face enemies with diverse attack patterns and behaviors that force them to adapt their strategies rather than simply overwhelming them with power.
Satisfying Feedback: The game should provide clear visual and auditory feedback for successful actions, such as staggering an enemy, landing a critical hit, or executing a powerful combo.
Synergy and Combos: Some engaging combat systems allow for creative combinations of skills or team-based attacks to unleash devastating effects, creating a dynamic flow to the fight.

Okay, I get what you mean. When you create a character, visual clarity throughout the campaign is fine, and you actually need to time your skills, dodges, etc. You use your brain for that, right? You combine skills in one way or another. But then we move into the endgame, we keep increasing the character’s power, and what exactly do you want in the end? The same dodges, just one monster on the screen or what? Then what’s the point of upgrades? How would you even feel character progression if at level 1 you’re dodge-rolling away from a white mob, and at level 100 you’re doing the exact same thing? Honestly, I don’t get these complaints at all…

"

Okay, I get what you mean. When you create a character, visual clarity throughout the campaign is fine, and you actually need to time your skills, dodges, etc. You use your brain for that, right? You combine skills in one way or another. But then we move into the endgame, we keep increasing the character’s power, and what exactly do you want in the end? The same dodges, just one monster on the screen or what? Then what’s the point of upgrades? How would you even feel character progression if at level 1 you’re dodge-rolling away from a white mob, and at level 100 you’re doing the exact same thing? Honestly, I don’t get these complaints at all…

Honestly don't know what you are talking about. Is it so difficult to understand engaging combat? Again you can ask AI

Don't tell me what fun is.
and No
I suggest do the opposite