Why dedicate my time if I can lose all my XP with a death penalty?
" This. XP loss on death isn't going anywhere. Guaranteed. Y'all should move on from the topic. | |
" No it is not, => Yes it is. It's my firm belief ... => it's your right to think so, as it's mine to think the opposite. I doubt => I do not. Without penalty experience, it would be too easy to reach level 100, and everyone would get there. And once that goal has been reached, many will stop playing. Which shortens its lifespan. PoE is developped by GGG, it is about Grinding. not just playing and getting to the end easily. You have to grind and risk your xp to achieve your endgame goals. Attracting new players is not an end in itself, and PoE 1 lived for many years without attracting many new players. Those who were already there were able to contribute financially to make the game and the GGG studio stable. No one asked for new players, and the veterans know from experience of the last few leagues on PoE that attracting lots of new players means bringing in lots of toxic personalities, scammers/Rmters and losing the original identity of the game and its original contributors. Last edited by Talamor1#0630 on Jan 2, 2025, 8:07:57 AM
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" Well that was kinda my point. I see no good argument against having it as an option for other players to use or not, however they feel it improves their experience or not. Any argument against, I believe, would be predicated on wanting to affect how others experience the game and not them personally. If they feel it adds to their experience, keep it on. But most would struggle to admit they aren't really arguing to improve their own experience, because they already enjoy the low-risk repetitive experience the XP loss enforces. What they don't like and want to prevent is other players from having an exciting gameplay experience where death is a more significant possibility. I believe you are right that even those who argue for it to be kept would soon turn it off if given the option to do so privately. Which does lead onto one argument against - that it is an achievement that shouldn't be devalued. Fine - make the option at character creation and flag those who opt out. Make it visible. |
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" You don't know that, GGG has never claimed it. If I understood correctly you were claiming the XP loss was the reason POE1 and D2 were successful. Which is prima facie ridiculous, but I will be charitable and assume you mean a significant reason among many, which I would still disagree with. I find my belief that they would have been more successful without to be far more reasonable but I leave that for the readers to decide. " Of course, again it's for readers to decide what seems more reasonable. The assertion that XP loss was somehow a key to success, or that it was actually a feature which held these games back from being more successful than they were. Or perhaps somewhere in between, but you were the one making the assertion, I merely reject it. " Speaking for yourself maybe? I wouldn't stop so long as there are fun endgame activities to challenge my character which are exciting and interesting to engage with. I believe the data is clear from other games that many players continue to play when at max level, providing there are either other progression avenues (gear for example) or fun activities and challenges to play. Not to mention that in games without an XP loss many players still do not get to max level. For example Paragon 300 in D4. And actually many didn't even get to 100 in earlier seasons of D4 which was much less grinding than P300 is. The goal can be made reasonable and adjusted to be achievable yet take enough effort to feel rewarding without an XP loss. " Grinding has existed for a long time in many games which do not include any XP loss. The two terms are not in any way entwined. Grinding just means a repetitive gameplay loop while making slow but steady progress towards a goal. " I am absolutely positive you are not speaking for GGG here. Nothing I have seen in their presentations, lectures and interviews has suggested they do not care about attracting new players. Many things about POE2 and things they have said in interviews suggest they want POE2 to appeal to a wider audience. Last edited by Orion_3T#9801 on Jan 2, 2025, 8:19:07 AM
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I actually started thinking and adding my own experience of deaths. Those who really want XP loss to be removed are doing stuff that are way over their character power level or preparation. I know from my own experience that i died mostly (except some after mob death explosion) because i attempted way too harder modifiers or levels that my character gear wasnt prepared properly for that content.
So solution was to farm more gear or even levels to get powerful and then move up to tougher stuff. So to remove XP penalty is mostly because of not proper geared or suited for new challenges/levels. I dont think anyone would die to mobs that are lower more than 6-7 levels to their character level. So that answers the question they are asking to remove XP penalty because of not prepared with gear or proper skill/passive points composition activity they are trying to do. Be it some trials or very hard maps/levels. It would give more info of on what they died and why XP penalty should be removed. That would answer a lot as i said you hardly die to content that is weaker than you or you are prepared well enough with char. |
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" This way of thinking is not unreasonable, but makes assumptions about the relative power level of other players' characters. Which can vary massively depending what class, ascencion, whether SSF or not, game knowledge, sheer luck of RNG in drops and crafting. The XP loss massively punishes those who fall behind the curve at all. The maps they can run relatively safely give very little XP and a death costs them several maps worth of experience. They could go even lower, or even back to the campaign, but then the XP is reduced to being almost insignificant. And if they fall asleep, the dog jumps up or wife walks across the TV they still lose the same XP. It's like kicking someone who is already crawling along the floor looking for scraps, trying to slowly build up the energy to make it back to the table. Maybe they are OK with crawling and maybe they are OK with scraps, for now at least. But getting kicked in addition is neither enjoyable nor helpful. The argument seems to be that kicking someone who's down encourages them to get up. Much more likely they just crawl away and never come back. Last edited by Orion_3T#9801 on Jan 2, 2025, 8:29:18 AM
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Some people never played games with proper endgame that is why they still see level 100 as an achievement when the game ends at level 60, fundamentally bad game design of course.
Just make challenging level 100+ content you cannot progress without proper preparations rather than gating the expected character progression which boosts retention greatly (psychological closure, most important factor see movie sales for example) behind asinine mechanics. It's already mind numbing enough to farm level 80 enemies for days with no gain because the xp bar is at a stand still lv95 but losing it because of a second of not paying attention is stupid. As said before, toggle/opt in for additional rewards is the best solution and give additional rewards/only achievable rewards through 0 death map completions with completion chain bonuses. Rather than punishing a bad player you should reward good players, this removes bad feelings thus lost players and gives a sense of reward to the better players. Only players who are at best mediocre defend penalties since it is an ego thing of wanting to affect other players games but they are not good enough to do the same in HC, you have this in every game where some people make up a competition when there is none. It is self justification and since humans are allergic to change + sunk cost being a thing some are adamant as this very thing, their hardcore game that filters noobs, is akin to a personality as such you deliver personal attacks by attacking the perceived core component of their "Hardcore endgame". More of a kindergarden that can be dismissed easily once you realize the purpose of xp penalty (never liked in history of gaming and was only used in old days to pad out gametime) you can also figure out better ways to achieve the desired psychological consequences on the player with positive rather than negative emotions. |
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" Sorry buddy not to go over our disagreements point by point, but I'm at work and I don't have the time to develop all my thoughts on these subjects (I may not like PoE2 in its current state, but I still spend all my days on the forums debating and trying to make constructive criticisms to improve it...). I'll just get to the heart of the matter by reminding you that the principle of games, if we have to sum it up very simply, is to make your character progress by making him gain levels. And that you can do this by facing increasingly tough opponents, who require you to equip yourself with increasingly effective items. The whole game is based on getting stronger and stronger. The reward is levelling up and loot. In my opinion, it would be nonsense to allow people who die on every map to reach level 100 with a build that doesn't hold up. why do many new players complain about losing experience when they die? Precisely because they would like to reach the next levels up to level 100. This penalty makes the endgame challenging and requires planning and going step by step. There's a risk of not being able to gain any more experience if players try to do things that are too difficult given the state of their builds. Instead of complaining about the loss of experience, I'd advise to make lower level maps and improve equipment first. And to GGG, I'd advise a serious rethink of the mechanics that one-shot builds capped at evasion/armour/6000+ life. My point is that a lot of people wouldn't complain about losing experience if they died less regularly because of one-shots or invisible trap/one death effects.[/quote] |
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" Your argument makes sense in regards to players trying to die up their levels, so we have to take this into consideration for a solution. One suggestion for xp penalties you read on the forum frequently is to lose the xp you made on that map specifically (or store the xp and reward on completion) this would cover it. Personally I like a stacking xp multiplier the longer you clear maps without dying so you only start getting serious xp (like 10-20% of a level) after multiple deathless clears (cannot go below a tier and what not, the developers are responsible for these details). Currently you speak from the position of an experienced player in the genre but the horrendous player retention of PoE1/2 has to be tackled, so the beginners or newcomers that are also being targeted or marketed towards with poe2, so we should instead ask ourselves how we can accomplish this desired learning experience without inflicting these feelings of loss on them (which is the worst experience you can give a person thus they quit)? Without these penalties the game can be made harder in regards to enemy placement/AI/strength and what not because currently it barely does. I speak from my own experience here but I do not see a difference between tier 5 and tier 16 maps outside of how you juice the map. I think this is a huge problem and needs to be addressed because when I hit endgame I did a few t1 maps, then t5, then got 2 t15 from a friend and farmed those since then. You could of course say I knew what I was doing even though I am new to PoE2 but this still feels wrong to me personally. Back to the topic, dying on maps should also greatly reduce the rewards you gain to the point where if you tackle content you cannot handle you really do not progress in regards to materials and what not (drop rate penalties if you will). If you are a new player with a mediocre build at level 81 then getting 10more levels is not suddenly going to make you clear the best content there is. If someone does achieve this however then that is to be celebrated as you have taught a player how to fix a build, in their eyes, and the confidence makes them return for later leagues and thus improve at the game. The game is lacking in real hard level 100 content. I will type this in the end again to remind you why 100 is so important to people, reaching max level/maxing a character gives a player a feeling of closure, humans are goal oriented. If you grind towards a goal (tangible, not grind 500000 maps) then you are motivated as rewards come in reliable steps and you feel progress. If you grind and you get nothing in return, perceived, you feel like it is not worth it. Game design has to take humans into account, this is how we end up with good games but also sadly things such as gambling and gacha. |
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" Sorry but : Giving closure to people = Player retention Doesn't make sense AT ALL. You guys still fail to understand the GAME is only 3 (6) Acts with closure. The ENDGAME is a infinite endless time sink for min-maxing with almost unreachable goals to strive for during weeks and months. Both content do what they are supposed to do. Confusing one for the other is a mistake. |
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