Why dedicate my time if I can lose all my XP with a death penalty?

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Lewtz#3630 wrote:

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:
EXP penalties do nothing more than make people frustrated and quit.

I can't think of ANY OTHER REASON they would have them in a game where there's a max level and you can progress your build right up to that level.

Which is odd for a game that literally EXISTS because of donations by people playing the game.

I quit POE 1 because of the exp penalties and having to slog through the same campaign every... single... time I created a character. It's boring, it's repetitive and it serves no purpose. Bliz... one of the worst development companies out there, FIGURED THAT OUT in 4 months.

GGG has been doing this for... what, 12 years now?

I'll argue. PoE is one of the few games I feel rewarded in, b/c everything is hard. B/c there is a death penalty. Etc. I struggled in lvl 91. Would win 9 maps, die one.. win 4 die.. win 7 die. Died close to 15? times in 91. And at that level each death is hours lost.

Kept at it, grinded. Crafted a new weapon. Crafted a new chest. Rearranged some rings...

When I hit 92, I felt like I had overcome a hurdle and hit a milestone.

Problem is people don't like effort in their games anymore. They feel rewarded for the biggest numbers.. of currency, or damage, etc... vs getting the feeling of rewarding gameplay from overcoming hurdles.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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Lewtz#3630 wrote:

"

Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:
EXP penalties do nothing more than make people frustrated and quit.

I can't think of ANY OTHER REASON they would have them in a game where there's a max level and you can progress your build right up to that level.

Which is odd for a game that literally EXISTS because of donations by people playing the game.

I quit POE 1 because of the exp penalties and having to slog through the same campaign every... single... time I created a character. It's boring, it's repetitive and it serves no purpose. Bliz... one of the worst development companies out there, FIGURED THAT OUT in 4 months.

GGG has been doing this for... what, 12 years now?

I'll argue. PoE is one of the few games I feel rewarded in, b/c everything is hard. B/c there is a death penalty. Etc. I struggled in lvl 91. Would win 9 maps, die one.. win 4 die.. win 7 die. Died close to 15? times in 91. And at that level each death is hours lost.

Kept at it, grinded. Crafted a new weapon. Crafted a new chest. Rearranged some rings...

When I hit 92, I felt like I had overcome a hurdle and hit a milestone.

Problem is people don't like effort in their games anymore. They feel rewarded for the biggest numbers.. of currency, or damage, etc... vs getting the feeling of rewarding gameplay from overcoming hurdles.

PoE hard? Are we playing the same game? We grind low level enemies this game is piss easy.
The game is far too easy to appeal to a hardcore gameplay (difficulty, mechanically complex) crowd and too punishing for a casual crowd. Once the game gets down to low player counts akin to PoE1 GGG will be forced to do something since it won't be financially viable to maintain 2 games for the same audience with shared mtx.

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MrPedez#4934 wrote:

To be honest you only really know what appeals to you and nor do u know anything about their financial situation. They never expected these high numbers of players they said that very clearly themselves and poe 1 just kept growing with every league exceeding the previous in number of players. In fact they seem to be doing pretty damn well and i dont think they mind loosing a few players if they can stay true to their vision of the game. This is not Blizzard and GGG is know to put quality and creativity above revenue because they have a passion for what they do, they are not going to make a dumpster fire D4 clone just to please the average casual dad gamer and sell more copies.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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MrPedez#4934 wrote:

To be honest you only really know what appeals to you and nor do u know anything about their financial situation. They never expected these high numbers of players they said that very clearly themselves and poe 1 just kept growing with every league exceeding the previous in number of players. In fact they seem to be doing pretty damn well and i dont think they mind loosing a few players if they can stay true to their vision of the game. This is not Blizzard and GGG is know to put quality and creativity above revenue because they have a passion for what they do, they are not going to make a dumpster fire D4 clone just to please the average casual dad gamer and sell more copies.

Tencent will like to hear these things.

"

Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

I don't think anybody is claiming they should be able to make good progress while dying on every single map. I certainly am not. But some little bit of progress for the time spent trying and the monsters successfully killed and maps successfully cleared is absolutely reasonable.

Second, be honest, why should it bother you if someone else spends 2, 3, 4 or however many more times as many hours getting to the same goal? Because for absolute certainty dying often massively slows progress even without the XP loss. You need to use another waystone, you lose the map activities, you have to spend time getting back into a map. Dying a lot is never going to get someone there efficiently due to the other systems in place like waystones etc. But if they spent 3x as long as you did playing the game, why begrudge them getting there eventually?

Thirdly, it's possible to be in the situation where you haven't found any good gear or been lucky with crafting for several levels, so even running the same maps you happily ran say 3 levels ago are significantly worse because because the XP loss has increased massively while the XP has gone down at least in terms of % of a level, possibly the actual amount goes down also (I'm not sure, haven't checked but it feels that way).

No it's because going backwards in progression feels awful and is demoralising. It's one thing to feel like achieving something might take a long time. It's another to think that in order to stand a chance you need to only play boringly safe content for many times as long.

It's not needed though - sustaining waystones is challenging for many. Losing map activities and having to re-run the map offers resistance.

Firstly, absolutely nobody is playing the game while not bothering to try and improve their gear and build. It's the entire point of an ARPG, it does not need to be enforced. And most know that getting better gear is usually most efficient running easy content as quickly as possible. They just might not find that fun.

Secondly it assumes there is a lower tier - I am sure plenty of people give up because they hit low 70s and are still dying occasionally on T1 maps, which only give a tiny amount of XP at that level so their progression halts. Sure, they might be able to trade or get lucky with upgrades but that just kicks the can down the road. The same will happen again but this time they will be a few levels higher and still running T1 maps due to the increased XP loss. And when you die, you have no guarantee that's going to happen anytime soon. It is demoralising and does not incentivise anything other giving up.

Thirdly, improving equipment relies on RNG. IDK if you are assuming trade or not but many people just hate trading. I realise trade is one of GGGs core pillars but they seem to have accepted not everyone likes doing it hence the SSF. So again you are just advocating running boring content for hours on end just to be able to maybe re-engage with something fun.

I have seen a reasonable compromise being to remove only XP from that map. That would be a big improvement. At least you wouldn't lose the XP you rightfully earned by completing the several maps previous.

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

I don't think anybody is claiming they should be able to make good progress while dying on every single map. I certainly am not. But some little bit of progress for the time spent trying and the monsters successfully killed and maps successfully cleared is absolutely reasonable.

Second, be honest, why should it bother you if someone else spends 2, 3, 4 or however many more times as many hours getting to the same goal? Because for absolute certainty dying often massively slows progress even without the XP loss. You need to use another waystone, you lose the map activities, you have to spend time getting back into a map. Dying a lot is never going to get someone there efficiently due to the other systems in place like waystones etc. But if they spent 3x as long as you did playing the game, why begrudge them getting there eventually?

Thirdly, it's possible to be in the situation where you haven't found any good gear or been lucky with crafting for several levels, so even running the same maps you happily ran say 3 levels ago are significantly worse because because the XP loss has increased massively while the XP has gone down at least in terms of % of a level, possibly the actual amount goes down also (I'm not sure, haven't checked but it feels that way).

No it's because going backwards in progression feels awful and is demoralising. It's one thing to feel like achieving something might take a long time. It's another to think that in order to stand a chance you need to only play boringly safe content for many times as long.

It's not needed though - sustaining waystones is challenging for many. Losing map activities and having to re-run the map offers resistance.

Firstly, absolutely nobody is playing the game while not bothering to try and improve their gear and build. It's the entire point of an ARPG, it does not need to be enforced. And most know that getting better gear is usually most efficient running easy content as quickly as possible. They just might not find that fun.

Secondly it assumes there is a lower tier - I am sure plenty of people give up because they hit low 70s and are still dying occasionally on T1 maps, which only give a tiny amount of XP at that level so their progression halts. Sure, they might be able to trade or get lucky with upgrades but that just kicks the can down the road. The same will happen again but this time they will be a few levels higher and still running T1 maps due to the increased XP loss. And when you die, you have no guarantee that's going to happen anytime soon. It is demoralising and does not incentivise anything other giving up.

Thirdly, improving equipment relies on RNG. IDK if you are assuming trade or not but many people just hate trading. I realise trade is one of GGGs core pillars but they seem to have accepted not everyone likes doing it hence the SSF. So again you are just advocating running boring content for hours on end just to be able to maybe re-engage with something fun.

I have seen a reasonable compromise being to remove only XP from that map. That would be a big improvement. At least you wouldn't lose the XP you rightfully earned by completing the several maps previous.

I think that the frustration generated by the loss of experience comes mainly from the fact that the number of deaths is greater on PoE2 than on PoE1.

The defensive aspect of the characters is almost non-existent (armour/escape is pretty much useless), players have the same feeling of difficulty and damage received in T5 or T15 maps, crafting and quality loot are non-existent and don't allow you to feel a return on investment after 2/4 hour play sessions.

GGG insisted on releasing EA with endgame content, which I think was a bad idea. The content isn't balanced (loot, damage and mob speed), which makes other aspects of the game frustrating (map lost on death, loss of exp, loss of currency invested in crafting the map, not to mention citadels, etc.).
Releasing an EA for 3/6 months with only the acts would have been much wiser, but would have sold fewer keys...

In my opinion, rebalancing the game would make it easier to accept the experience penalty at the end of the game, but this will still have to happen.

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

GGG insisted on releasing EA with endgame content, which I think was a bad idea.