zoomer meta gamer mentality ruined poe1 and will ruin poe2

"

Assababud#2808 wrote:

"

nnilfoest#6766 wrote:

Because mobility is also excellent option in any game. Also, no one like to be a slow heroine, specially when enemy can go faster than your character and lot of AoE to get out before it kill you.

By all mean, I don't like to be The Flash that zoom through map either. I think about 30-40% should be at most, 50-60% at maximum with skill/special trade-off gear.
On the basic that late game design around player have 20% MS to avoid it comfortably (not super easy, just more comfy). Any pay for extra should be reward, not mandatory.

They could reduce the AOE of enemy spells. Reducing some of enemy's movement speed is a given. Many ideas GGG could do to accommodate the character's slowness.

Yup, a lot need to change. IMO, PoE 2 is really encourage player to gotta go faster than PoE 1.

- Map is a maze with lot of dead end.
- Lot of telegraph attack and AoE that hit hard, specially with wind-up that track player. (They should not, to reward player for noticing early.) Many of them are "Get over here!" in very short timer too.
- Hard hitting monster, high speed and lack of meaningful Def mean you either kill them fast enough or die trying.
- Boss that spam a lot of thing at last leg instead of well design pattern through out.
- On-progression gear that feel slow to kill thing with some skill.
- The harder requirement to grind, the more efficiency (aka - time) people will look into it.
- This depend on individual, but I strongly believe that when facing hard boss that restart each death. They have 2 choice to either be more safe or kill it faster. Most people will pick later than former. (Learning the mechanic or not)

Very interesting read and I do agree with all your major points.

But I also have to say that the every-other-character or alternative gameplay ( higher scaled bosses etc that in theory already exists :) ), won't solve the "zoomer problem" unfortunately.

It runs a bit deeper than how it might look and you're focusing on the wrong people in my opinion.

Talking as a developer from this point on, we can agree I believe, that one problem that all arpgs ( and various other genres ) have is "balancing". This is a self-inflicted problem because there's always a multitude of affixes and percentages and pools of x,y,z attributes that inevitably create unwanted interactions and game-braking mechanics.

I say self-inflicted because the team that makes the game decided for those, nobody forced them to do so, it's their design and they usually end up shooting themselves in the foot by making it so vast and complex because it looks ( and is ) interesting, that ends up in a big pile of calculational problems and from a point on it's just un-manageable.

So the meta/"zoomer" vs "non-zoomer" is a "choice", given to you.

It's up to you, the player, to either enjoy the game as was "intended" and explore all the options etc in a supposed normal state, or "exploit" it into eternity and beyond. A good example from other game genres are the speedrunners, their "fun" is to figure out all the broken things in a game and finish it within 1 minute instead of a 50hour "normal" run.

And usually what happens in the case of an arpg, is that the team will try to "balance" things out, while in parallel introducing something else that inevitably breaks other calculations and it goes into a vicious cycle that never ends.

So the problem isn't really the "player" and the problem will always be there on every game that exists.

I do agree completely on the aspect of every-other-character and "not give up the rest of my social life", but that's a different thing, unrelated to the zoomers and the metas in my opinion.

Those guys will still find a way to "zoom" through everything :).

I agree. I hate how arpgs have devolved into the most braindead gameplay. Hold one button down walking simulator. I hope they give the zoomers what they want then add a ruthless mode for those of us that don't want that. This way everyone wins.

The zoomer mentality exists because it is the OPTIMAL WAY TO PLAY THE GAME. It is the only way to reasonably get anything done in maps in any amount of time or to farm currency at any acceptable pace.

The game essentially forces meta due to lack of meaningful options in the passive tree and general balance.

Get off your high horse

"

nnilfoest#6766 wrote:

"

Assababud#2808 wrote:

"

nnilfoest#6766 wrote:

Because mobility is also excellent option in any game. Also, no one like to be a slow heroine, specially when enemy can go faster than your character and lot of AoE to get out before it kill you.

By all mean, I don't like to be The Flash that zoom through map either. I think about 30-40% should be at most, 50-60% at maximum with skill/special trade-off gear.
On the basic that late game design around player have 20% MS to avoid it comfortably (not super easy, just more comfy). Any pay for extra should be reward, not mandatory.

They could reduce the AOE of enemy spells. Reducing some of enemy's movement speed is a given. Many ideas GGG could do to accommodate the character's slowness.

Yup, a lot need to change. IMO, PoE 2 is really encourage player to gotta go faster than PoE 1.

- Map is a maze with lot of dead end.
- Lot of telegraph attack and AoE that hit hard, specially with wind-up that track player. (They should not, to reward player for noticing early.) Many of them are "Get over here!" in very short timer too.
- Hard hitting monster, high speed and lack of meaningful Def mean you either kill them fast enough or die trying.
- Boss that spam a lot of thing at last leg instead of well design pattern through out.
- On-progression gear that feel slow to kill thing with some skill.
- The harder requirement to grind, the more efficiency (aka - time) people will look into it.
- This depend on individual, but I strongly believe that when facing hard boss that restart each death. They have 2 choice to either be more safe or kill it faster. Most people will pick later than former. (Learning the mechanic or not)

Who knew that removing life on tree would make the game MORE zoom zoom?

It’s not gamers creating meta, it’s the game’s poor design forcing people into certain playstyles.
- Delirium and Breach must be removed as these two actively rewards zoomers
— I have no interest in continue playing until these two are removed or significantly changed
- Mapping: stage clear condition and map generation needs an overhaul
- More meaningful defensive options and significantly nerfed damage options / overall class balancing

There is no point to most of the skills in the game because there's no point in bringing different abilities to solve problems or CC or anything. Just bring damage and explode the screen. That's it. If it doesn't scale damage it's meaningless. Setting up combos is both useless and too strong, because it's bad for 99% of the game and when you fight pinnacle or map bosses it basically one shots them.

Huh. I thought the tourist season was over.

Guess there are some few left who are still writing gigantic walls of text.

But that's just most gamers today. Everyone wants to follow the meta and optimize every game. Players are simply using the tools and mechanics that are available to them in the game, because being OP and exploding screens and winning with the least amount of effort possible feels good.

It especially feels good in a game like PoE 2 with its antagonistic anti-player anti-fun design. The only fun to be found in this game is breaking it in half and copy-pasting a meta zoom build that clears screens and kills bosses in seconds lol

No idea if GGG will just literally nerf every fun build out of existence until we're left with some joke of a "soulslike" with D2 fanservice and the slowest,most punishing gameplay you've ever seen. We'll just have to wait and see exactly what builds get nerfed.

Trade causes most of the problems, if you remove trade and add better crafting methods. (crafting bench, div cards, harvest, etc.) People wouldn't need to trade. There would be no reason to farm 1000 divines or 10 mirrors.

Since its impossible to do that because people don't realize how much trading hurts their experience, we are stuck with this neverending whackamole with nerfing speed meta every league.

They already made a game mode in poe1 for the slow methodical harder gameplay and nobody really plays it (ruthless) Its possible a lot of the people who enjoy the poe2 campaign will try out ruthless next league but who knows.

There may be some middle ground for trade-ssf to prevent degen farming zoom strats but im not smart enough to come up with that solution.