The reason why XP penalty exists and why it's not for everyone

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dkp#0523 wrote:

Lol. How are these "take away the XP penalty" threads still a thing. Y'all are wild.

The xp penalty isn't the problem. It's the xp penalty + one life + insane grind for boss access + bad monster balancing + unfair boss one-hit mechanics.

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Vinsdvalh#0247 wrote:

You must be resonating with this :)
https://youtu.be/5H16ixwysA0?si=3T-JE6poMaGlZdcy

Josh is so based as usual. It's the same as I feel. Most people like a challenging game. If we die and we can try again, even though we lost the time on the previous attempt, we at least justify it by thinking we learned something, we gained experience/muscle memory, etc. To be punished afterwards just sucks and doesn't help the game in any way.

Dying and having all progress wiped out is a feels bad moment that makes people want to quit. With the penalties we just avoid risky stuff, play safe, don't experiment, stick to the meta, avoid doing the hard content. It just ruins the game and makes it pointless. Here's all this fun and challenging content you can do, but if you try it and die, we'll bash you over the head. What is the point?

A lot of the defenders complaining about level 100 needing to mean something are shooting themselves in the foot. If it's supposed to mean something, then that is what everyone will try to reach, thus it should be reachable. If it doesn't matter as some others have said then it shouldn't be part of a challenge or mean anything.

Some other defenders of XP loss want deaths to matter, well there is a mode called hardcore where death matters, go play that.

No, sorry.. it doesn't make sense to add exp penalties to a PVE game for any reason whatsoever.

Nobody can actually support that standpoint without the words "skill", "get" and "good".

There's simply no need for gating progression in a PVE game. At all...

There's no "reward" for getting to 100, no skin, no amazing new mount or anything. Even in D4 there is a new skin, mount, etc. for reaching max paragon and they don't have exp penalties there.

So, really... nobody can even try to tackle why a developer as BAD as Blizzard can respect a player's time, but GGG can't.

Bottom line:

EXP penalties are a rage-quit mechanic and literally the reason most people quit GGG games.

More than even the ridiculous ascendancy trials....

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1453R#7804 wrote:

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

What? No obviously the maps wouldn't reset when you die. I am literally saying they should just copy the 6-portal system from PoE 1. You die once and you have 5 portals left, the map is exactly as it was before you died. Nothing is reset, no league mechanics are lost, no loot is lost and bosses aren't reset.

Why not? That's how instances/areas work in Path 2. Die, and the whole thing is wiped clean and reset. Why on earth would they do a complete and utter one-eighty from the campaign to maps that way? Players have used the instance reset to help farm and bulk up right before a boss in campaign, why wouldn't they assume they could do the same in a map?

The map device providing six portals is a relic of the original game, and supposedly a limit on the number of players that can enter the instance. Why? Simpy have a single portal, and if you die you cannot use it again. Your friends can come in and help, and if they do stuff like PoE1 hideouts again where the instance itself is profitable, have the portal break after [X] uses.

Again - this is a request to take PoE2, burn it to the ground, and turn it into PoE1-just-with-better-graphics. Copying PoE1's shallow and unsatisfying endgame system into PoE2 is not the answer. Breaking the new game's rules in order to comply with the old game's rules sucks, and we shouldn't do it.

Sounds like you haven’t even played endgame or you’re pretending the game doesn’t do a 180 after the end of act3 when it becomes a worse poe1 clone

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1453R#7804 wrote:

Copying PoE1's shallow and unsatisfying endgame system into PoE2 is not the answer. Breaking the new game's rules in order to comply with the old game's rules sucks, and we shouldn't do it.

maybe you hadn't noticed, but POE 2 is an exact copy of POE 1, but with better graphics. All the same problems and ponderously bad development choices were ported over too.

Like the lack of in-game trading mechanics (like an AH) instead of the lazy bandaid they applied to POE 1 to get trading working.

Or the ascendancy trials that have NOTHING to do with ascending in your chosen class/ascendancy and is instead a one-size-fits-all, lazy filler of hard content "just because".

The exp penalties
The lack of end-game outside of just mapping
The lack of mounts or true travel powers
The flipped asset content in the campaign where the first few acts are mirrored in the second half of the game.
Paying for respecs in a PVE game, etc. etc. etc. etc.

The list goes on and on.

This isn't POE 2. It's POE 1.1.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

The map device providing six portals is a relic of the original game, and supposedly a limit on the number of players that can enter the instance. Why?

they talked about this in an interview. jonathan basically said we sold a load of mtx map devices for poe1 with 6 portals and we have to honour those in poe2 so we had to stick with 6 portals xD


he did then mention you need a limit on how much loot can come out of a map along with single player vs party play etc, so 6 people can enter a map and come out or a single player can come out and in 6 times.

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1453R#7804 wrote:

The endgame is "shallow and unsatisfying" to PoE1 ultravets who care about literally nothing save maximizing their div/hour count by following a single hyperstrict, cripplingly over-focused Endgame Currency Juicing Plan to the exclusion of literally everything else, so they can farm a thousand divs per day running ONE sub-strategy of ONE subtype of ONE type of content on ONE map with ONE set of map mods. Just running, say...Xoph breaches with a single extremely specific and unintuitive Atlas passive and three extremely specific scarabs on Strand at T16 with +Magic packs and +Rare packs only, every single map EVER, for an entire league. or whatever the current Infinite Currency Forever glitch strat happens to be for a league.

Is the current system thin? Yeah, we don't have even half the game yet. But the bones of PoE2's endgame are already better than the first game, where a desire to do an interesting variety of content meant you were nothing but a complete loser who should just uninstall forever. The last time PoE1's endgame was actually interesting was War for the Atlas; PoE2's Cataclysm is already better than Conquerors ever was, and whatever the hell is going on with the Maven, Eater and Exarch doesn't even merit a name.

i absolutely agree. i think this system is a million miles better than poe1. im really enjoying it as it is and the potential this system has moving forward is genuinely exciting.

its the better aspects of delve and atlas mapping combined together.

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noother10#5677 wrote:

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Vinsdvalh#0247 wrote:

You must be resonating with this :)
https://youtu.be/5H16ixwysA0?si=3T-JE6poMaGlZdcy

Josh is so based as usual. It's the same as I feel. Most people like a challenging game. If we die and we can try again, even though we lost the time on the previous attempt, we at least justify it by thinking we learned something, we gained experience/muscle memory, etc. To be punished afterwards just sucks and doesn't help the game in any way.

Dying and having all progress wiped out is a feels bad moment that makes people want to quit. With the penalties we just avoid risky stuff, play safe, don't experiment, stick to the meta, avoid doing the hard content. It just ruins the game and makes it pointless. Here's all this fun and challenging content you can do, but if you try it and die, we'll bash you over the head. What is the point?

i got to be honest, i feel the same and i felt the same in poe1.


i defended the death penalty in poe1 endlessly in these forums for 12 years because in that time i didnt see 1 workable alternative suggested that was compatible with poe1s endgame systems for making death meaningful. death has to be meaningful, as bad as xp penalty is having no real consequence for death is way worse.



but any time i died on a high level character i genuinely felt like quitting the game. more often than not i would tbh, if im level 98 and i die in a map i more than likely will just close the game and walk away.

i build characters very tanky in poe1 and i probably die once every few 100 maps on a character thats trying to level up? maybe once a month if im playing a fair bit. but when it happens im usually done, i get a deep sense of pointlessness in playing the game that takes a while to pass.

that feeling makes me so risk adverse, in poe1 i have characters that are levelling and characters that do hard content. hard content characters are effectively parked at their current level. they will annoyingly eventually end up with 70% xp and i feel obliged to turn them into a mapping char and grind out the rest of the level before they can return to their job xD



dying on a character who is below 97 is nothing to me in poe1 tho, to be clear this is characters who are 98, 99. i could get xp back so quickly at lvl95 or etc that i dont care, so the penalty never ruined the game for me. but i understand the feeling people have, i get where people are coming from esp players who are not veterans that see getting to lvl94, 95 as fairly easy.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

There's almost zero value in a mechanic like this being imposed on everyone for the sake of Races. There's no defense that you can make as to why this is mandatory, and not optional and opt-in.

You want to race? K, click the race button. Warns you "Race characters lose 10% XP on death past level 70"

Bam, everyone's happy.

If I was the developer for a game, I'd be looking in the mirror and asking myself why I felt it necessary to force something like this on every player, for a once every few months event. Seems like it's just a weak argument to justify it.


I never cared about racing, and most games that try to force competitive stuff like this, have very few people interested in it, unless the game is literally designed for competitive players.

. Just let me play the game without getting kicked in the nuts GGG. Please.

every league or trade league is a race league.

It will always be there for every League.. if they removed it put it into standard. This is their view and this has been a staple in the game for more than a decade.

Having no consequence for death is a horrible idea.

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QticaX#4168 wrote:

every league or trade league is a race league.

It will always be there for every League.. if they removed it put it into standard. This is their view and this has been a staple in the game for more than a decade.

yeah, D4 calls it a season? but poe calls it a league which is a more competitive connotation. what they come from in D2 is a ladder reset, thats what it is. the ladder of who is the highest level, and the reset is a reset of the game that refreshes the ladder, beginning the ladder race all over again.


adding new content to the ladder reset to incentivise people to come and paly it, then calling it a league, that was the evolution of the concept.

How come 2 pages of this thread got lost? Was waiting for a response from a "super nice guy". :)