PoE Forums Are Broken – How to Fix Toxicity & Engagement

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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JakkerONAIR#4902 wrote:

If it's true - report these posts and they get removed if they break the rules, I know it's working.

The issue has never changed, because the problem makers are not removed.

The comments slide right past the Moderators, because they're not directly confrontational/antagonistic. But the intent behind them is clear. Start an argument, and win that argument, shame them, blame them.

And there's about 2 dozen regular forum goers that do it any chance they can.

Any comment that's responding to someone else saying "Git Gud" Is technically against the rules, but they don't enforce it, and there are hundreds of examples of comments similar to this, from today alone. Then you end up with forums that are unusable, because these people get to freely bully others who have differing opinions.

Seems a bit one-sided, how you present it. If it's not against the "Code of Conduct" and/or not reported it will not get removed, everything else is a grey area.

When someone says "I have problem x with the game" or "I dislike x about the game" you will always have an opposition or vice versa, well, nearly always - and that will lead to arguments on both sides.

One side calls the opposition "toxic/gatekeepers/elitists/no-lifers/chills" or whatever and the other side calls these ppl "tourists/noobs/gamer-dads/casuals/gitgut" or whatever.
Sure, often masked with other words/sentences, but as long as it doesn't break the "Code of Conduct" directly - the speech will stay free.

You can dislike that and have the ability to report it - should it be a breach, but there isn't only one side with "the bad guys".

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JakkerONAIR#4902 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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JakkerONAIR#4902 wrote:

If it's true - report these posts and they get removed if they break the rules, I know it's working.

The issue has never changed, because the problem makers are not removed.

The comments slide right past the Moderators, because they're not directly confrontational/antagonistic. But the intent behind them is clear. Start an argument, and win that argument, shame them, blame them.

And there's about 2 dozen regular forum goers that do it any chance they can.

Any comment that's responding to someone else saying "Git Gud" Is technically against the rules, but they don't enforce it, and there are hundreds of examples of comments similar to this, from today alone. Then you end up with forums that are unusable, because these people get to freely bully others who have differing opinions.

Seems a bit one-sided, how you present it. If it's not against the "Code of Conduct" and/or not reported it will not get removed, everything else is a grey area.

When someone says "I have problem x with the game" or "I dislike x about the game" you will always have an opposition or vice versa, well, nearly always - and that will lead to arguments on both sides.

One side calls the opposition "toxic/gatekeepers/elitists/no-lifers/chills" or whatever and the other side calls these ppl "tourists/noobs/gamer-dads/casuals/gitgut" or whatever.
Sure, often masked with other words/sentences, but as long as it doesn't break the "Code of Conduct" directly - the speech will stay free.

You can dislike that and have the ability to report it - should it be a breach, but there isn't only one side with "the bad guys".

The "Grey" area is precisely why these forums are unusable.

Loose enforcement rules, and Moderators that let people slide by without actually dealing with the issues.

There's nothing else to it. I'm not going to argue with you about this. Like I said in my other post.

This is like two brothers. Sitting next to eachother. Mom said "Don't touch your brother." And one of them decides to start hovering his finger near the others face. Claiming "I'm following the rules, I'm not touching you!!"

Then he hits you, because you've been doing it for 20 minutes, and he gets in trouble over it. And then that annoying brother starts it all up over again. Never getting caught. Even though he's the one instigating things.

Except. It's people baiting others into arguments to defend their stances, and bullying them with non-stop replies and comments about how the other person needs to do better, or just needs to view things differently. There's zero intent for a discussion. Just to be right.

This is what's known as invalidation, and it's the main reason these forums are so toxic. It's allowed to be rampant, and abundant.

This is what moderation needs to take into account. This is what being a moderator is. You ensure healthy communication. The rules clearly talk about this too. The issue is one of emotional intelligence, people often don't realize just how unhealthy this style of communication is, or how many issues it causes. You don't need to attack, or insult another person, for it to be considered bad, and against the rules. Discretion needs to be used for regular offenders. People who spend all day commenting on threads, trying to start arguments is a GREAT place to start, when looking at cleaning up these forums.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

having an opinion you don't agree with is not against the rules. i was accused of 'personal attacks' here already yet none of my posts were removed. you know why? cuz it was a lie. prob aimed to trigger me, just like the post that got removed just now. the projections are coming it hot today

Says he does no personal Attack Proceeds to gaslight me. You are not arguing with anyone in this Thread. Your posts mainly consist of Ad Hominem.

go on list them, you were going to, i was waiting lol :)

Sure on it.

This one is straight up calling him dumb in a way so you dont breach code of conduct: "but people like you are not here to understand those reasons"

This one was directed at me and is also gaslighting again.
"ou are denying me my right to express my own opinion about their own opinion which means you are personally attacking me. if i wouldn't know any better i would tell you to stop" Gaslighting too

Personal here instead of actually arguing.
"lol, again ignoring the original reason behind it, never engaging it, just making shit up" accused of making shit up

You are not arguing in this Thread. Youre just spreading toxicity around. After reading most of your posts. You are providing zero value to this discussion. And yes that is obviously personal cause the topic is you and your behaviour. I end this here, because it goes nowhere.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

The "Grey" area is precisely why these forums are unusable.

Loose enforcement rules, and Moderators that let people slide by without actually dealing with the issues.

There's nothing else to it. I'm not going to argue with you about this. Like I said in my other post.

This is like two brothers. Sitting next to eachother. Mom said "Don't touch your brother." And one of them decides to start hovering his finger near the others face. Claiming "I'm following the rules, I'm not touching you!!"

Then he hits you, because you've been doing it for 20 minutes, and he gets in trouble over it. And then that annoying brother starts it all up over again. Never getting caught. Even though he's the one instigating things.

Except. It's people baiting others into arguments to defend their stances, and bullying them with non-stop replies and comments about how the other person needs to do better, or just needs to view things differently. There's zero intent for a discussion. Just to be right.

This is what's known as invalidation, and it's the main reason these forums are so toxic. It's allowed to be rampant, and abundant.

Well, there is nothing in place that prevents ppl from spreading misinformation, presenting subjective views as facts and other stuff too because it's not the moderator's job to censor everything we say.

It's our choice to engage or disengage discussions if we don't like to have them. I mean, an actual "Ignore" function would be great - so we could block stuff from specific ppl we don't want to engage with, but we can at least do it manually without responding anymore.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

The "Grey" area is precisely why these forums are unusable.

Loose enforcement rules, and Moderators that let people slide by without actually dealing with the issues.

There's nothing else to it. I'm not going to argue with you about this. Like I said in my other post.

This is like two brothers. Sitting next to eachother. Mom said "Don't touch your brother." And one of them decides to start hovering his finger near the others face. Claiming "I'm following the rules, I'm not touching you!!"

Then he hits you, because you've been doing it for 20 minutes, and he gets in trouble over it. And then that annoying brother starts it all up over again. Never getting caught. Even though he's the one instigating things.

Except. It's people baiting others into arguments to defend their stances, and bullying them with non-stop replies and comments about how the other person needs to do better, or just needs to view things differently. There's zero intent for a discussion. Just to be right.

This is what's known as invalidation, and it's the main reason these forums are so toxic. It's allowed to be rampant, and abundant.

Well, there is nothing in place that prevents ppl from spreading misinformation, presenting subjective views as facts and other stuff too because it's not the moderator's job to censor everything we say.

It's our choice to engage or disengage discussions if we don't like to have them. I mean, an actual "Ignore" function would be great - so we could block stuff from specific ppl we don't want to engage with, but we can at least do it manually without responding anymore.

Yes, an ignore feature would be amazing. But I also think, at some point. You just have to recognize that some people are here just to stir the pot, and they should be gotten rid of. GGG Clearly wants civilized discussion. That includes mutual respect in comments, and engaging in good faith. Which I would say, Most do. At least until they are met with someone who isn't. Then that's when the problems arise.

This has nothing to do with censorship. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just a matter of sharing those opinions in a healthy manner. If you can't do that, you should be removed from the site.

And yes, We are free to choose who to engage with. That's a great help. But not everyone is as capable of ignoring a troll, or even realizing that they're a troll to begin with. A lot of people that engage in discussions in such a toxic manner, are usually doing so to get some sort of emotional rise out of you too. To get a reaction. Some can be very good at it.

Moderation is still necessary unfortunately because of this.

Another idea would be for GGG to make polls in game that work with the forums and do it more consistently.

You can't fix toxicity without fixing community, and ofc you can't fix community.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

The comments slide right past the Moderators, because they're not directly confrontational/antagonistic. But the intent behind them is clear. Start an argument, and win that argument, shame them, blame them.

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And there's about 2 dozen regular forum goers that do it any chance they can.

You know why this is? It's because all of the biggest trolls here have forum avatars that make them look like North Korean military generals. They are cash cows and GGG doesn't want to lose them, even though they are obnoxious trolls who make the game worse for anyone who dares visit the official forums. The trolls have made it so bad that Reddit or Steam is a better place to gather and talk about the game.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

Any comment that's responding to someone else saying "Git Gud" Is technically against the rules

The irony of this is that POE 1 and POE 2 is basically Vampire Survivors, where you hold down one button and then collect your loot, but the forum trolls think they are no-hit level 1 Sekiro speedrunners.

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voodoochile78#9787 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

The comments slide right past the Moderators, because they're not directly confrontational/antagonistic. But the intent behind them is clear. Start an argument, and win that argument, shame them, blame them.

....

And there's about 2 dozen regular forum goers that do it any chance they can.

You know why this is? It's because all of the biggest trolls here have forum avatars that make them look like North Korean military generals. They are cash cows and GGG doesn't want to lose them, even though they are obnoxious trolls who make the game worse for anyone who dares visit the official forums. The trolls have made it so bad that Reddit or Steam is a better place to gather and talk about the game.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

Any comment that's responding to someone else saying "Git Gud" Is technically against the rules

The irony of this is that POE 1 and POE 2 is basically Vampire Survivors, where you hold down one button and then collect your loot, but the forum trolls think they are no-hit level 1 Sekiro speedrunners.

I think it definitely at least impacts some of the decisions being made. I've seen many people with multiple badges that get to say some pretty egregious things and just walk away, but when you call them out, you get your comment removed.

And yes. PoE has never been a difficult game. People on these forums act like it is though. I play tons of difficult games. I was very high Elo in DotA 2 and League for many years. Till I realized what a pointless endeavor it was to constantly aim for competition, rather than enjoyment. POE is a game that I enjoy playing, but the community behind it has made it a very unpleasant game to play. And this includes GGG staff, who won't consider listening to casual players at all. There was so many people saying that XP loss on death is unfun, and that they just want to play the game and GGG went and said NOPE. I play PoE to zen out. I can mindlessly grind maps and watch a tv show while doing it. It's never been difficult. Don't know why people try to act like it is.

Like, not even sure what this company wants anymore. They clearly don't want millions of casual players playing the game. They seem to actively want people that like wasting their time. AT least, that's what it feels like when they ignore feedback like that.

I get wanting to make a game in your style, but at the same time. Just add in the option. Then people can play how they want.

The thing is. I've seen the exact pattern that this game has taken in the past, and looks like it's about to take again with PoE 2. With many games that focus solely on the part of the community that values competition. All it does is breed toxicity.

World of Warcraft is a great example of this. Rather than focusing on the fun of playing with friends and community. They made the game about grinding raids and doing mythics. Then all anyone ever values in the game is parses and doing well.

Compare it to Final Fantasy Online, where the entire community feels 100x more pleasant and welcoming to people. The game is actually harder, and people still get to parse, but all the casual players can log in and enjoy themselves because that's what the sole aim of the game was. Not the competition. They didn't forsake casual players in favor of the better ones. They gave everyone something to do.