The Debate Over Experience Point Loss

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

So you can spend dozens of divines on 5way carry runs but somehow can't afford a 100c to 250c Omen? Seems legit. And yes level 100 is a accomplishment, whether you like it or not.

I will disengage here because there's no use or value in discussing with you. At the end of the day GGG knows better, just like they did with T17 maps, and no amount of kicking and screaming will change that.

Have a good day.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

100 is a trophy. It is earned by mastering your build, mastering your play or mastering the economy. As aspirational content, it should remain something that needs to be worked at to achieve. The EXP penalty on death is integral to that.

I can think of no reasonable pinnacle-capable builds that require more than level 95 to finish. And exp loss below 95 is very very trivial.

It is my belief that trophies should be worked for.

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Pashid#4643 wrote:

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Welp exp loss will eventually be gone, because that would be objectively good for the game with no downsides. This is a fact

That's not a fact but just your own personal opinion. And looking at GGG's stance across both of their games it's easy to say that they heavily disagree with your opinion. It's been around since forever and GGG will likely stick with it, that's a fact.

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. And me and many others who understand that this is an outdated mechanic that should have been left in the past forever will continue to give their valid feedback about it.

Feedback that won't change much about the existence of the valid mechanic. If you want to get rid of the exp penalty maybe just maybe it's about time to learn the game and let go of your zhp build. Cause if anything there's no penalty if you don't die, it's as simple as it gets.
Even omen exist to lower the value of exp lose and someone who buys all the challenges every league should have more than enough currency to either spend them on omen, or a proper character to simply skip the need for omen all along.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

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萬雨節#2979 wrote:

In response to those who were attacking me, I also ended up using very aggressive language in this post.

I felt it wasn’t a comfortable space for sharing thoughts, and I didn’t expect any further replies.

That’s why I wrote a new post hoping to hear others’ perspectives—but I didn’t realize the two posts would be merged, causing confusion and making it look like a duplicate issue.

I sincerely apologize. If anyone would like to share their thoughts moving forward, perhaps we can continue the discussion in the post titled "People who oppose adjusting experience penalties upon death, come in"?

Once again, I sincerely apologize for unintentionally creating duplicate posts.

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It's quite fascinating that right after my post, a new one appeared discussing the loss of experience points upon death, sparking a heated debate.

Because I didn’t propose removing the death penalty altogether—I merely suggested slightly reducing the amount of experience lost on death—and yet I was harshly criticized as if I were attacking the game itself, lol.

Path of Exile is a highly enjoyable and well-crafted game. It's the pinnacle of its genre and has already surpassed Diablo, the genre’s original pioneer.

Still, everyone acknowledges that this game has a high entry barrier. Why hasn't such a well-made game achieved market dominance? Is it simply because it's difficult or complex? I don't think so.

Take Elden Ring, for example. It's a difficult game, yet its expansion sold over 10 million copies—clearly a mainstream success.

People play games even if they're difficult and complex, as long as they’re fun. That's the truth.

The same applies to Path of Exile. People play it because it’s fun despite its difficulty and complexity. So why does this game have such a steep entry barrier?

I believe the game has elements that make players uncomfortable—such as the tedious process of finding Legion Jewel numbers or the reliance on external websites due to limited in-game information.

But I’m not trying to talk about all of those. I want to focus on just one issue: experience points.

To be clear, the intention behind my suggestion is simple: I hope more people can enjoy this game, and I want to lower the entry barrier just a bit.

I'm not saying the game should be easier or that anyone should be able to reach endgame mindlessly. That’s already what Diablo offers—ease and accessibility. POE is the opposite. It’s deep and complex, with intricately linked content.

That’s precisely why POE is fun. Its difficulty and complexity create diversity and allow players to build countless unique characters tailored to their playstyle.

So this game should remain challenging and complex. That’s part of its identity, and I don’t intend to change that.

Apologies if the post feels long-winded. It’s frustrating when people assume you’re whining about a game you don’t even understand, lol.

Now then—why would reducing experience loss on death help more people play the game?

Some argue that removing penalties makes it too easy to hit max level, which shortens the time people spend in-game and makes the game feel boring too quickly.

I get that. But that logic applies to players already familiar with POE—people who’d still play even if every mode except Ruthless disappeared. They’re devoted fans who always return for the next league.

For them, a minor reduction in death penalty wouldn’t cause boredom or make them quit—just finish the league a little earlier.

That’s where experience adjustment helps. Even if veterans wrap up early, it gives room for newer players to take their place and increases the overall player base.

Think about players still learning the game—those who complete just one build during the league. If they feel less stress from dying, maybe they’d try a second build mid-league. That means more time enjoying the game, and they might stick around long enough to eventually master multiple builds and even tackle Ruthless.

Discussions about removing death penalty entirely have been around for a while. That tells us even long-time players feel stress from it. So newcomers must feel it even more.

Still, I’m not advocating for removing the penalty outright. That would make the game dull.

What I'm proposing is a simple adjustment—enough to make dying less punishing while still encouraging players to recover lost XP.

I think 5% is the maximum acceptable loss. Any less and it risks losing the purpose of a penalty. Even 6% could work.

The point is to reduce stress while maintaining challenge. I don’t believe slightly lowering XP loss damages the game's identity or makes it feel boring.

Plus, this adjustment helps newer players acclimate with less pressure, possibly growing the player base.

Yes, games should retain players over time—and making things too easy is risky. I’m not denying that.

But I don’t think this small change causes that kind of exodus. Even if players finish a league a week early, they’ll return for the next one. POE is just that fun.

That’s the core idea. Wrapping up a league early isn’t quitting—it’s a temporary break. Reduce stress just a bit, and more players will settle into the game.

Long-term retention matters, but so does ensuring people feel welcome to return anytime.

If someone sees a new league and thinks, “Ugh, I have to start a new character from scratch?” and decides not to come back, wouldn’t reducing that stress help re-engage them?

And those skilled enough to finish early could shift to Ruthless, Hardcore, or SSF instead.

I know we all love this game and have constructive ideas for its improvement. I’m one of those people too—I just want more players to enjoy POE.

So I’m proposing a refinement, not a rework. The game’s complexity is its strength, and I have no intention of altering that.

I only want to lower the entry barrier slightly so more people can experience the fun.

Times have changed. There's so much to do, watch, and play these days. It’s a world with limited time.

Some believe retaining users means locking them in longer. But I think it’s better to make returning easy. POE has the quality to bring players back—even if they finish early.

That’s the idea. Lowering stress slightly could reduce psychological barriers and encourage returning players.

Some may dismiss this, saying, “Would that small change really help?” But considering how long players have suggested removing XP loss altogether, it’s clear there’s valid stress involved—especially for those less familiar with the game.

Sorry the post got so long. I don’t know how many will read it to the end—but to those who do, thank you.

100 is a trophy. It is earned by mastering your build, mastering your play or mastering the economy. As aspirational content, it should remain something that needs to be worked at to achieve. The EXP penalty on death is integral to that.

I can think of no reasonable pinnacle-capable builds that require more than level 95 to finish. And exp loss below 95 is very very trivial.

It is my belief that trophies should be worked for.

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yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

ORRR....

It's not a trophy and simply a way to artificially inflate game play time to keep people chasing a carrot.

No need to "master" anything. All you need to do is watch a couple YT vids, pick a "immortal" build and play white t16 maps until level cap.

You don't need to "master the economy" you just need to have a very, very basic idea of "don't need perfect stats, just decent enough stats" then buy cheaper.

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

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yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

ORRR....

It's not a trophy and simply a way to artificially inflate game play time to keep people chasing a carrot.

No need to "master" anything. All you need to do is watch a couple YT vids, pick a "immortal" build and play white t16 maps until level cap.

You don't need to "master the economy" you just need to have a very, very basic idea of "don't need perfect stats, just decent enough stats" then buy cheaper.

You are definitionally mastering the game when you use any of those starts. Is my English Literature Master's degree negated because I went to college for 8 years and was taught the finer points of composition?

By your logic, because I was instructed by others, I have not mastered English Lit.

Educating yourself and being taught by others how to play in a certain way is in fact, mastering the game content.

As to the lack of "trophy" status, if a task is difficult, (tedium is a variety of difficulty), desired, yet unnecessary to progress in the game, it is indeed "a trophy." Level 100 fits that criteria.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So essentially if i could write a python script to follow a build guide to the letter and then just spam white t16 for 100+ hours you would argue my script has "mastered the game" while in reality it has simply followed a step by step guide?

Tedium is not difficulty, Tedium is tedium, i expect someone with an Masters Degree in English literature to know the difference

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Sabranic_SilverDeth#2793 wrote:

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So essentially if i could write a python script to follow a build guide to the letter and then just spam white t16 for 100+ hours you would argue my script has "mastered the game" while in reality it has simply followed a step by step guide?

Tedium is not difficulty, Tedium is tedium, i expect someone with an Masters Degree in English literature to know the difference

Writing a cheat program would get you banned and I'd cheer for your removal from the game. Now, lets play a hypothetical - if this flavor of cheating were legal and accepted practice, YOU would have demonstrated mastery in an acceptable path of progression, and YOU, who wrote the script, would have demonstrated mastery.

And enduring tedium is indeed enduring difficulty. If it's not, then you really don't appear to have much of an argument.

It's either difficult or it's not, you can't waffle circles around the issue. If it's all just "easy" where is the point of contention?

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

So you believe enduring tedium is difficult?

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

Then why not add even more Tedium, make us wait an hour between maps, so difficult, just wait, tediously, until you can continue, this is so incredibly difficult to do. That is what your argument about "tedium is difficulty" boils down to.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

Because it isn't, Tedium is not difficulty, tedium is something that makes you quit a game in frustration.

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jakob601#6439 wrote:

As someone who has reached level 100 before, i can guarantee you, there is not sense of achievement, there is no great trophy or sense of accomplishment, the only thing you think is "well, i could have gotten here much earlier if they didn't hold on to an outdated and annoying mechanic.

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Noone force you to do it. 99 easy achievable without omens. 1 skillpoint out of 123 doesn't change anything. And you can complete all challenges without it. So what's the problem?