What does new life leech mean for you? Analysis and Discussion
" This is not how leech works. All leech is 20-30% of max life/sec depending on quality of leech gem. Only thing that changes is the duration. You would see a possible nerf in two ways: 1) No longer continuing to leech for long after stopping attacks 2) No longer having 100% upkeep of leech during attacks. |
|
|
Basically to sum it up. If you are a spell caster, you are screwed, like even more than before. Discharge maybe ok, rest GTFO. Like why are you even running a spell caster anyway. Don't even bring up that paw crap, its only for incinerate. The actual life on hit on it is pathetic (like 10% of a LOH gem), not to mention you are forced to stack block and even then lose a huge chuck of damage compare to a normal wand.
Oh and CI is dead too. Vaal pack just got a huge nerf for CI users, lost 60% leech for no gain whatsoever. Guess which side CI is at? Right, casters. So as a ES you have to deal with constant chill/freeze. perma shock, perma stun, and only way to reliable stack some armor was grace + IR. Now you still have to do all of that, and don't even have vaal pack as your reward. I mean CI was so overpowered in that 1 week race .... what like 2 people took CI? Guess how many are taking now...(hint its not any higher) I honestly don't know what GGG balance team is doing. Unless those spell and ES nodes are mega huge, like 20% spell damage per node and 10% ES per node, the right side of the tree (minus the crits/weapon nodes) is pretty much dead (like it wasn't already dead). Well, at least this patch we will see LA and LS back in full force. Trolling all the lightning casters with more leech more shock and more dps. So not everyone will be a max blocker. Oh throw some Summoners in there and that's pretty much the next meta. IGN Vermillionillusion GMT-4, usually 8-12 pm Last edited by thinkingofaname#4522 on Mar 5, 2014, 2:00:17 AM
|
|
" I am not sure which part you are saying is "not how leech works". Simple facts; life leech stacks will no longer queue. This means any stacks coming in at the same time are wasted (GGG even mention this directly). AoE/Multi-target/Shotgun provides multiple stacks at the same time, hence, some will be wasted. The only way this does not affect in-fight performance is if your single-target non-shotgun leech would result in 20% life per second or more. I then showed an example of how much dps a shotgun spell would need for a certain amount of life to accomplish this. So, which part did you have issue with? Last edited by Aimeryan#0430 on Mar 5, 2014, 2:26:50 AM
|
|
"Even if you leech for what would be 1% of your max health, you take 20% of your max health per second for 1/20th of a second. No matter the size of the leech, it's still at a rate of 20%/second, it is the leech duration that changes with hit size. edit; see this ggg post http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/811113/page/3#p7054873 Last edited by pandahands#1513 on Mar 5, 2014, 2:33:01 AM
|
|
" I know that. What is your point? This is all relative. Lets look at the numbers, as that may help. Using the example I had last time: 4500 life, 10000 dps (shotgun), 2000 dps non-shotgun (which we need to use for the life leech calculation), 8.8% life leech. As I mentioned, the loss is relative, so the number of casts per second isn't important, but lets vary them to show this. -- Lets use 5 casts per second (0.2 seconds between casts):
Spoiler
2000 dps * 8.8% LL = 176 life leeched in a second.
We do 5 casts per second, so each cast does 176/5 = 35.2 life leech. We leech at 20% per second; 20% * 4500 = 900 life leech per second. Since we leech 900 life in one second, we leech 1 life in 1/900 = 0.001111111... seconds. Therefore, we leech 35.2 life in (1/900) * 35.2 = 0.03911111.... seconds. Ok, so we can see that each cast results in a life leech at 20% life per second lasting 0.039111... seconds. There is 0.2 seconds between attacks. Therefore, there is a lot of time where no life leech is occurring. Now, lets go back to the system where stacks queued. After 0.0391111... seconds the next stack would commence. We know there would be 5 stacks in total (for the 5 projectiles shotgunning). So, can 5 stacks fit between 0.2 seconds? 0.03911111.... * 5 = 0.19555555.... So, yes - all the stacks would go through before the next hit. Therefore, we have lost 80% of our life leech. -- Lets use 20 casts per second (0.05 seconds between casts);
Spoiler
2000 dps * 8.8% LL = 176 life leeched in a second.
We do 20 casts per second, so each cast does 176/20 = 8.8 life leech. We leech at 20% per second; 20% * 4500 = 900 life leech per second. Since we leech 900 life in one second, we leech 1 life in 1/900 = 0.001111111... seconds. Therefore, we leech 8.8 life in (1/900) * 8.8 = 0.00977777.... seconds. Ok, so we can see that each cast results in a life leech at 20% life per second lasting 0.00977777... seconds. There is 0.05 seconds between attacks. Therefore there is a lot of time where no life leech is occurring. Now, lets go back to the system where stacks queued. After 0.00977777... seconds the next stack would commence. We know there would be 5 stacks in total (for the 5 projectiles shotgunning). So, can 5 stacks fit between 0.05 seconds? 0.00977777... * 5 = 0.0488888... So, yes - all the stacks would go through before the next hit. Therefore we have lost 80% of our life leech. -- I can do more examples for you, but suffice to say, the time between casts and the duration of the leech is relative to each other based on the dps. If the dps stays the same the ratio of the duration of leech to time between casts stays the same, no matter how many casts occur per second. Now, I mentioned that the life leech may only be 20% of what it was when it comes to shotgunning (with GMP). The word may there is quite important. When the shotgun life leech per second is greater than 20% life per second but less than 100% life per second the loss will be less. Example:
Spoiler
4500 life, 30000 dps (shotgun, GMP), 6000 dps (non-shotgun), 8.8% leech.
8.8% * 30000 = 2640 life leeched per second. This is about 58.66% of life leeched per second. Lets look at how this works out, with say 5 casts per second. Once again, we need to use the non-shotgun dps for the leeching with this patch, since stacks at the same time get lost. 6000 dps * 8.8% LL = 528 life leeched in a second. We do 5 casts per second, so each cast does 528/5 = 105.6 life leech. We leech at 20% per second; 20% * 4500 = 900 life leech per second. Since we leech 900 life in one second, we leech 1 life in 1/900 = 0.001111111... seconds. Therefore, we leech 105.6 life in (1/900) * 105.6 = 0.1173333.... seconds. Ok, so we can see that each cast results in a life leech at 20% life per second lasting 0.1173333... seconds. There is 0.2 seconds between attacks. Therefore there is some time where no life leech is occurring. Now, lets go back to the system where stacks queued. After 0.1173333... seconds the next stack would commence. We know there would be 5 stacks in total (for the 5 projectiles shotgunning). So, can 5 stacks fit between 0.2 seconds? 0.1173333... * 5 = 0.586666... So, no - all the stacks would not go through before the next hit. However, 0.2 / 0.1173333... = 1.70454545... which is the number of stacks that would go through. This means we are only get 1 / 1.70454545... = 0.586666..., or about 58.66% of the life leech we would have got before - still quite significant a loss. -- What about when shotgun life per second is greater than 100% life per second? We don't lose any:
Spoiler
4500 life, 60000 dps (shotgun, GMP), 12000 dps (non-shotgun), 8.8% life leech. 5 casts per second.
60000 * 8.8% = 5280 life leeched per second, more than the 4500 life we have (so more than 100% life per second). Using the non-shotgun dps for the leech: 12000 * 8.8% = 1056 life leeched per second. We do 5 casts per second, so each cast does 1056/5 = 211.2 life leech. We leech at 20% per second; 20% * 4500 = 900 life leech per second. Since we leech 900 life in one second, we leech 1 life in 1/900 = 0.001111111... seconds. Therefore, we leech 211.2 life in (1/900) * 211.2 = 0.2346666.... seconds. Ok, so we can see that each cast results in a life leech at 20% life per second lasting 0.2346666... seconds. There is 0.2 seconds between attacks. Therefore there is no time where no life leech is occuring. Now, lets go back to the system where stacks queued. After 0.2346666... seconds the next stack would commence. We obviously can not fit any more stacks in 0.2 seconds. Therefore, we have not lost any life leech in combat (although, we wont have stacks queued up for after combat). -- I hope that was enough examples! Last edited by Aimeryan#0430 on Mar 5, 2014, 3:39:33 AM
|
|
|
If you have 5% LL, 10000 damage hit and 2500 health.
If the 10000 hit is in just one instance you will leech 5% of 10000 = 500hp. 500hp is 20% of 2500, so it will give you a 500hp/s regen for 1 second after your hit. If the 10000 hit is actually shotgunned through 10 instances, you will leech 5% of 1000 = 50hp 50hp is 2% of 2500, so you will gain 500hp/s regen for 0,1 seconds after your hit. Basically, shotgunning and AoE effects have had their lifeleech nerfed by the amount of hits those skills do. This doesn't affect people (during a fight) who: 1. Have such high damage per projectile/target hit, that they reach the 20% of max health per second limit. In my example this would mean having a 10000*10 shotgun. 2. Hit fast enough to have no gaps. In my example, you would need to hit 1000 damage every 0,1 seconds to reach the 20% limit. (if you did 1000 damage per hit). Basically, large hits > small hits when it comes to Lifeleech after the patch. This is especially pronounced for spells, because they have no LGoH gem and must get cybill's paw or vaal pact to benefit from smaller hits. I would say it's a nerf to spellcasters. Weird, isn't it. Last edited by Idioticus#7813 on Mar 5, 2014, 3:44:22 AM
|
|
" I feel I must point out that your quote: " should not be taken lightly - 1000 damage every 0.1 seconds might not seem much until you realise that means that it is 10000 dps non-shotgun, or 50000 dps shotgunned (GMP). Those are quite high numbers for only 2500 life, especially for spells. Regardless though, it is not a matter of how fast you cast, but instead a matter of how much dps you do compared to your life since the duration of the life leech is based on this. More hits over time but same dps just means many proportionately-less-duration life leeches spread over the same unit time. More hits at the same time are wasted though (hence, bad for AoE/Multi-target/Shotgun). Either way, the conclusion is basically AoE/Multi-target/Shotgun has had a big life leech nerf unless the dps to life ratio was so high before that the life leech is able to take a multifold reduction and still be over the cap (in which case, they were probably using Vaal Pact and have therefore still been nerfed by the 60% reduction). Last edited by Aimeryan#0430 on Mar 5, 2014, 5:23:53 AM
|
|
" It has nothing to do with large hits vs small hits. It's all about the DPS. Assuming same dps, large hits give you longer leech healing over time, but you have larger gaps between hits. Smaller hits give smaller duration heals, but with smaller gaps. I am kind of curious about the details of how the game handles the timing of hits. Since leeches don't que, is there a benefit from spreading out the exact time of hits landing slightly. For example if you're using freezing pulse and you have a crowd of enemies, the pulse is going to hit the closest ones, then intermediate ones, then the furthest ones. |
|
" You make some excellent points. Going CI has a lot of drawbacks. |
|
" There will be a benefit to the hits being spread out, assuming the earlier hits do not hit for significantly larger amounts than the later hits. The strength of that benefit will be dependent on the time between the hits and length of the life leech of those hits. Long duration life leech and very little time between the hits = hardly any benefit. Short duration life leech and a fair amount of time between hits = large benefit (in fact, it may be possible to pseudo queue the stacks in this case). Last edited by Aimeryan#0430 on Mar 5, 2014, 4:54:05 AM
|
|
