[3.11] Shaper = Stunned, Tidebreaker Heavy Strike Stunner Build
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brightwaha wrote:
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SMOKALOT wrote:
Why do you chose slayer and Berserker for the build?
dont you think champion would be a great choice as well?
new impale looks promissing
Also, for HC which ascendency you think have best defences?
Champion is okay, so is Ascendant, even Jugg is fine as well.I used to have a Champion and an Ascendant section in the guide. I removed them recently because:
Champion is pretty slow, and it doesn't have the AoE and the leech from Slayer. The DPS from Champion is great but this build doesn't really need DPS. It's overall pretty solid with good DPS and defense but it lacks identity and a good reason to use over Slayer or Berserker. Also because our attack rate is pretty low, we cannot make very good use of the Impale mechanics.
Berserker is a lot faster than any other options here, and being fast alone is a good reason to pick Berserker. It can also pull out the best DPS - which with good gears, should be around 4M in 3.7.
Slayer has good DPS now, has good AoE bonuses, and has its signature leech. Before leech got nerfed in 3.6? People were picking Ascendant purely to get the Slayer leech.
I also removed the Ascendant version recently because it kind of lacks identity as well. Berserker is now faster than Ascendant and that's like the only thing Ascendant does well.
So I think Berserker and Slayer are the 2 choices this build really needs right now. Berserker is for the fast and high DPS high stun capability figure for the more aggressive types of people, and Slayer being more well-rounded with good defense and big AoE for the more central/defensive oriented.
EDIT: for HC, I would say Slayer for sure. It has enough damage so that you can go for all the life nodes in the tree, and it also has the leech and AoE which keep you safe.
Great job mate, cannot wait for all the info! Btw, how it's going to be with packs clearing? Will we use a new aoe gem? What about ms skills choices? Thx!
The real answer is I am not so sure. There are many new Support gems and I can no longer speak from experience here. I expect Ground Slam and Sunder to be good, and I think maybe clearing with Heavy Strike isn't going to be too bad either (with investment into weapon range).
I think we stick with Leap Slam as our movement skill. There are not really other contenders anyway.
Great job mate, cannot wait for all the info! Btw, how it's going to be with packs clearing? Will we use a new aoe gem? What about ms skills choices? Thx!
The real answer is I am not so sure. There are many new Support gems and I can no longer speak from experience here. I expect Ground Slam and Sunder to be good, and I think maybe clearing with Heavy Strike isn't going to be too bad either (with investment into weapon range).
I think we stick with Leap Slam as our movement skill. There are not really other contenders anyway.
I know about Impale being it's own damage source/instance, but have a look at the following calculation:
We get 90% Impale chance from tree/support.
We get 89% increased effect of impale from tree/support.
Using Dread Banner adds another 20% chance and 19% effect. 110% chance, 108% effect in total.
Now, our first hit would do 100% damage with no impale stacks on enemy.
Second hit would do 100% (normal hit) + 20,8% (including increased effect) from one impale stack in two seperate source/instances.
Third hit does 100% + 41,6% from two impale stacks - again, in two sources/instances.
...
Sixth hit onwards deals 100% + 104% from impale.
So, while saying Impale does not help the initial hit on stun chance is true, we get double the hits/chances/sources running after the sixth hit.
Also i don't really understand your argument with mobs dieing before we stack this up. Normal/Rare mobs will be dead by the first or second hit anyway and on bosses the stacking will be up after the first second in combat (another plus: no decaying when you need to move - impale stacks have no timer). So as far as you don't kill bosses within <10 hits, this should be worth after all.
I am actually not so sure if Impale works this way. Impales are separate debuffs dealing reflection damage themselves. So there is a possibility that each instance is calculated separately instead of collectively. There is also a possibility that our r.E.S.T. won't work because for example Skull Cracking says "10% reduced enemy stun threshold with maces", and Impale may not be calculated as our mace damage. We need clarification on this mechanics before doing any math here.
Another comment is about the fluctuations in our damage. Our hits don't look like 100, 100, 100, 100, 100. Rather, it looks like 75, 50, 200, 100, 75. It isn't the hits dealing 50 that are stunning, it's the hits dealing 200 that are. So when you add up the Impales, you're essentially taking the average, and you cannot compare the average with the ones that actually stun the enemies.
Impale does not work that way for sure. Impale is reflected damage, reflected damage cannot strigger on hit effect such as stun or status ailments. Whatever investment in Impale while gaining you damage does not contribute in any meaningful way to stunning.
Did some quick math to approximate the value of bersker:
https://pastebin.com/raw/8Q0j9BUU
Results:
https://pastebin.com/raw/PQXzB5v8
Not too sure if any of my numbers/assumptions were too out of whack, but it seems that berserk wins over keeping rage stacks only over the first few seconds. For prolonged fights (>4s), maintaining rage stacks is better.
Did some quick math to approximate the value of bersker:
https://pastebin.com/raw/8Q0j9BUU
Results:
https://pastebin.com/raw/PQXzB5v8
Not too sure if any of my numbers/assumptions were too out of whack, but it seems that berserk wins over keeping rage stacks only over the first few seconds. For prolonged fights (>4s), maintaining rage stacks is better.
berzerker w/ 3x rage effect i wasnt sure but all my pob info indicated this would be the case. thanks for doing the math!
Still might be worth poping at low rage values like 5-10 for a few strong hits early.
I reckon non-berzerkers will get more out of the berzerk skill since they arnt losing 3x the power of rage.
Did some quick math to approximate the value of bersker:
https://pastebin.com/raw/8Q0j9BUU
Results:
https://pastebin.com/raw/PQXzB5v8
Not too sure if any of my numbers/assumptions were too out of whack, but it seems that berserk wins over keeping rage stacks only over the first few seconds. For prolonged fights (>4s), maintaining rage stacks is better.
berzerker w/ 3x rage effect i wasnt sure but all my pob info indicated this would be the case. thanks for doing the math!
Still might be worth poping at low rage values like 5-10 for a few strong hits early.
I reckon non-berzerkers will get more out of the berzerk skill since they arnt losing 3x the power of rage.
Math
Spoiler
Are you calculating total damage instead of instantaneous damage? Because the value of Berserk is apparently 1.3*1.29-1=67.7%. The value of 3x 50 stack rage effect, according to my own PoB file, is around 62%. So as long as Berserk is active, it should offer more than rage stacks themselves can offer.
For Berserker without Rage Support, Berserk lasts around 8 seconds with maximum rage generation from the ascendancy; let's say it's going to be 7 seconds in reality. Rage generation from 0 to 50 is going to take 17 seconds with maximum rage generation; let's say it's going to be 23 seconds in reality.
For the first 7 seconds of Berserk, the average damage bonus will be 1.677*(1.62+1)/2-1=120%, then for the next 23 seconds of gathering rage, the average damage bonus will be (1.62+1)/2-1=31%. The average damage bonus across this 30 seconds interval would be 52%.
Which means, in a target dummy DPS measure, using Berserk yields slightly lower long term DPS.
With Rage Support (ignoring it's own added damage), duration of Berserk goes up to 11 seconds, let's say 10, and rage stack build up takes 8 seconds, let's say it's 10 as well. Now the average damage bonus becomes 75%, up from the 62% of not popping Berserk.
Now if we remove the Berserker ascendancy, and only talk about Rage Support and Berserk, the rage bonus would be around 25%, average total bonus from Berserk would be 88%, long term expectation with Berserk would be 30%, up from the 25% of not popping Berserk.
The 2 calculations with Rage Support however, ignored the Rage gem added damage, which would be 22% bonus damage. So, no matter what setup, not popping Berserk wins the long term target dummy DPS test.
A problem here, is that PoE is not WoW, and fights usually don't last long. A bigger problem is that we are playing a stun build - having excessive DPS doesn't help, but having a period of lower DPS can be very dangerous.
So I think Berserk can have its place, for 2 reasons: 1. to be used as a damage mitigation; 2. to be used at the last 10 seconds of a map (or Incursion).
But is Berserk going to be useful in Shaper fight? I don't think so. We will have trouble generating rage stacks in the first place.
My conclusion is, Berserk is probably okay for league contents and stuff in maps, but not really for stand-alone boss fights. If you have extra gem socket and skill bar slot, it's going to be useful; if you don't, you are not missing out on something important either.
And I have another interesting conclusion about Rage Support. I think Rage Support is actually not bad in Slayer's AoE setup. The added flat damage is about 20% DPS, and rage itself is about 20% DPS. It's not bad for the DPS and it offers some mobility.
