Changes to the Labyrinth

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de4th4mphet4mine wrote:

Just remove ascendancy points from the lab..

For all with lab fetish they still get enchants and loot.

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foosis wrote:

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Ulren001 wrote:

When I read "remove the labyrinth, suppress the trials, ...", I understand: "make the game more casual". When I read "it's frustrating", I understand "it's frustrating to chain it to get his helmet’s enchantment."

The problem is there. But, these enchants can be exchanged, paying the high price certainly, but it’s possible.

The labyrinth is something unique, unparalleled in other games. It’s a challenge, which offers multiple rewards: chests, ascendency’s points, enchant. It’s not really hard, it requires concentration, mainly for traps. A large part of the PoE end game is farming high end map and mid end boss (atziri, gardians, …) as quickly as possible. One of the most appreciate thing of a build is his clear speed … But the lab don’t love the speed.
And I apologize, but the lab is farmable, as long as you use the right tools and the right methods. But (the meta) CI is not the most adequate method ...

When I write "remove the labyrinth" I mean "remove the platforming". If I wanted platforming, I'd play Super Mario, a genre I very much dislike. Or one of those Necrodancer style games, which other people may inexplicably enjoy, but I find terrible for game mechanics (and which the labyrinth slightly reminds me of).

Primarily remove those falling/spike doors: why is there a moment in an ARPG where I just have to stare at the screen and wait for some meaningless and consequence-less animation?
And then the lever "puzzles": a remarkably efficient way of generating the feeling that I'm wasting time.

It doesn't help that in the endgame labyrinth, the area lvl is too low, so I'm just walking through the intermediary areas without paying attention, again amplifying the sensation of "why am I wasting my time here?".
Change the labyrinth to three directly chained Izaro fights, reduce the reward density per minute such that it corresponds to the current one, and I'm fine. I simply want no classic platforming in my gameplay.
Or make it completely optional and ignorable, which it is not right now.

From a genre-focused standpoint, the Labyrinth is one of the worst designed levels in ARPG history. PoE would do well without it, like the other ARPGS (and I've played more than half a dozen since D2). And it and would certainly not become more casual.

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Roji wrote:

Lab is awful, please remove it.

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Helgurnaut wrote:

Glad to see i'm far from being the only one to dislike the lab, its probably the only thing I dislike (a lot) in PoE and saddly its a must do.

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guardianigor wrote:

Remove lab from game. And fire entire team who made it.

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ADFuel wrote:

Yeah I, like most here, absolutely detest the lab. It's not fun. It's repetitive. It's frustrating to navigate. It also takes a long time. It has to be done 3 - 4 times for each character. As a HC player who dies frequently, I feel as if I'm constantly having to re-run the lab.

Can we perhaps have the option to fight Izaro immediately and forego the treasure key / enchantment?

Or if we do the merciless lab first, can we also be granted the ascendancy points for cruel and normal?

GGG. Pls.

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cursedvit wrote:

Remove lab or make it a separateit from the ascendancy system.

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Woodcutta wrote:

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KlausKleenex wrote:

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theoneandonly33 wrote:

Lab really is one of the best things in the game IMO. It's very important that it guards the ascendancy points, as they are waay too powerful to be given out for free. Also learn how to do the lab instead of hating it.

100% agree

What does learning how to do the lab have to do with liking/hating it? You can know how to do something and still hate it. The main issues I see people complain about when it comes to the lab is that we are forced every league to do all the trials and that it is the ONLY content that you can't get a "true" carry. By "true" carry, I mean you can still die b/c you still have to run the entirety of the lab. You may like the lab but I might hate it. Why should I be forced to spend so much time doing something I hate when the rest of the content in the game isn't like that?

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Grimkhor wrote:

To all those people talking about majority or minority, look at the numbers. Comparing lab ladders shows that not alot of people do lab. If you don't want to look at league, look at standard it should be stable and has about 100 people running it. That's it.
In all leagues today it's maybe less than 2k total players running lab. All those people that freaking love lab don't run it in reality or they are the real minority.
As a reference you could look up steam stats about active players on steamcharts. Ridiculous.

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Czm wrote:

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Bars wrote:

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yungwhiz wrote:

Please just add an opt out where you fight Izario, get your points, dont get any treasure chests or enchants.

I've been saying this for a long time now.

I hate, hate, hate lab.. and your idea is the key how to make it right..

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GregoryPOE wrote:

Low level trials and labs just waste of time and boring like hell. Just give 2 ascendancy points at level 20, 40, 60, 80 and make Uber Lab endgame map for whoever like it.

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Rippster wrote:

I'm disappoint, not a fan of the Lab.

If you have to have it, make us run it once and give us all the points, people can run them over and over again if they so choose.

Bleh.

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paulopc wrote:

I hate the lab. Remove it !

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Nochalo wrote:

Labyrinth, as it is now, is BAD. Don't get me wrong, I was really frustrated by it, but beaten it and had this sweet feeling of accomplishment, joy of overcoming it's obstacles, beating final boss.
But I still thinks it is bad for the game (as it is). Why? Because it belongs to endgame (somewhere in the land of difficult challenges where Atziri and Abaxoth are). It doesn't belong to the big and rich part of the game which is bulding your character.

Lab is great as a place, where u can test your char, how strong, versatile it is, and also test yourself and your ability to play the game well.

At the same time it is horrible, as a thing, you NEED to beat in order to make your char stronger.
It's like Abaxoth fight - if it was mandatory I would curse the existence of it, BUT - as an additional challenge with no extra rewards apart from - "hey I was able to do that guy!" - I was actually looking forward to it. Just to see if my char and my build was strong enough to kill the bastard :). Because - in case it wasn't - I wasn't really loosing anything.

Of course Lab need some incentives for players to run it - but don't tie it to progression. Make some MTXses as a reward, titles, whatever thing you like, as long as it will not make your char much stronger.
But let us ascend by killing gods! It would fit from perspective of mechanics, lore, gameplay, etc.

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SGOR wrote:

pls just remove everything but boss fight, lab is sooooooo boring, waiting for traps makes me sleep and waiting is something that should never happen in an arpg....everything else is great! (lab is not)

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Jagaimo wrote:

So basically the only changes are 1/3 less trials for the first three labs and a bit less time wasted on normal lab? Not really impressed and lab will still stay the same tedious chore that you will have to complete on every single character. The problem for me is that lab gameplay just gets super boring after doing it a few times and there are no rewards or w/e in there except for ascendency points - enchants and chests are really only worth it on merc/uber.

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prayformercy wrote:

Lab is the worst experience in this game. Its unnecessarily stressful and can kill an otherwise viable for hardcore character in a second. I'm all for an optional challenge but requiring this place to get ascendancy points is stupid, especially for hardcore characters. We cant unlock the full potential of our builds without going into an area that can kill you for the tiniest mistake or bit of bad luck on trap combinations.

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SassyBeard wrote:

This sucks. Lab is so terrible.

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edgarickoz wrote:

Just remembering 4 lab runs every char makes me cry.
Worst addition to the game ever.

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zind wrote:

Sounds like no real changes for someone who's never actually beaten a labyrinth before? The boss has ended two of my HC runs, but the labyrinth itself just felt super tedious for me. The fight seemed challenging and fun but running the labyrinth to get there was just a terrifically un-fun way to RIP a character.

Essence league was the most fun I'd had in the game since beta, but the labs put me off of it again. Tried briefly coming back for Legacy but at this point I'm hoping the expansion brings me back in. I was hoping the "single playthrough" overhaul would include only needing to do a single labyrinth as well :\

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Brockness wrote:

Who cares about early labs? they are already short due to out-lvling them...

This is extremely disappointing. I didn't expect a huge nerf to the lab but I expected *something* and this is nothing. Why is the lab untouchable? what is so special about it that they are willing to ignore all the valid complaints and do nothing to improve player experience with it?

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Allisyn wrote:

The Lab is a reason not to play.
If I wish to play a decent high level char I have to do it for the benefits. Or I can just play around a while with low level maps as long as I can handle them without the bonus of the hated Lab. Or I can just quit.
Though I would like the former I might stick to the latter.

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NoluK wrote:

I wish you would run a poll to see how many of us actually LIKE the traps and current implementation of the labs. You can pull stats that say 100% of the players have run the labs but it is semi-required to finish builds. I personally detest the traps in the lab. I know they are someone's love child at GGG but they are not a fan favorite in any way shape or form. Yes, some people run them repeatedly for the enchants and loot. Yes some people make builds just to run labs and farm them or even speed farm them in minutes. That does not make them a popular playstyle choice for everyone. Do a poll and then decide if you want to force feed more of this totally different playstyle and design down our throats or provide your players with options to achieve the same ascendancy points via an alternative mechanic.

TLDR Labs are NOT fun for everyone.

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myusernamestillnotknown wrote:

I am all for the lab being shortened. Nice step in the right direction. I would like to see a system implemented that used checkpoints after each Izaro kill, that way you can restart if you rip say on the last set of traps before the final Izaro fight. That being said many people seem to be on the same page about attaining ascendancy points elsewhere. The lab would work perfectly fine as an end game map/enchanting/farming area. I don't think I've ever seen an issue in poe so many people agree upon more: mandatory lab runs suck.

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Tyrex15 wrote:

The lab, like Atziri and Shaper, has a place in the game. A good place. It is a vector for earning some of the best loot (well, Uber lab is good for this), as well as adding some interesting enchantment options.

However, Ascendency should not be tied to the lab.

Too many builds simply can't deal with Izaro. Do you rely on a Vaal skill (e.g. Vaal Grace) as a layer of defense? Does not work for Izaro, sorry. Are you life-based? Izaro's ridiculously counter-intuitive invisible hit-boxes of doom have a one-shot for you.

Additionally, insanely dim lighting, multi-screen trap gauntlets, and trap combinations that cannot be navigated hit-less are absolutely terrible from a platforming perspective. There are spike + saw blade layouts that you cannot time because you are racing through the part you could see with no chance to analyze the portion that is off screen until you are standing on it. There are roomba + spike dart layouts that actually offer no window of safety while traversing due to their timing.

All of this can exist and be a good thing, pushing players to make dedicated lab-runners if they want to run lab. We already have this with Atziri and Shaper and the highest tiers of league challenges. Some (optional) content should only be possible for a build dedicated to that content.

But, I CANNOT use my dedicated lab build to run the Ascendency for one of my other characters.

That, right there, is the fatal flaw of lab. It is content that is required for builds that cannot be built around running that content. No one is required to run Atziri to progress past level 80. No one has to kill Merciless Malachai before running maps. No other aspect of character progression is gated behind a task that (massively) favors specific builds over others.

Leave lab in the game. Leave the option to run it at differing challenge levels, with the cool enchants gated behind those levels. Leave the loot in Uber lab as is, and buff the loot a bit in the lower challenge levels. Add some slight deterministic weighting to the enchant system for helms (the current system is the Keno of RNG crafting -- just a black hole to throw one's time into).

Lab farmers will emerge as a play style, just like Atziri farmers and Shaper farmers. And the rest of the builds in the game can progress from Twilight Strand to maps without having to engage in content for which they are severely sub-optimal.

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Lothorienn wrote:

The problem with the labyrinth is that silver keys are useless, chests in the first 3 difficulties are useless and there are too many dead-ends making you backtrack and wasting time.
Some of the enchants are good but not worth 20 minutes of your time for items you're gonna change very soon.
It generally feels like an annoying chore you have to do in order to enable your build.

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zersetzung wrote:

After a few hundred labyrinths it is only annoying. I would prefer if it only needs one run per league and than counts for every character. Make the lab skipable, if it is completed, and let us fight Izaro directly with a higher difficulty.

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IHellBoundI wrote:

Well even the ppl that hate the lab (myself included) agree that Izaro is fine. The problem with lab is not the boss fight but the traps. I think traps should give some debufs/buffs to mobs nearby (dangerous buffs that u must take care or rip) but its insane that they do so much damage and are way too close of eachother in some layouts.

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Alykk wrote:

i play POE since 2012 but laby is the most worst idea ever.... i just hate it .
Im doing it only for 6 pts and done!

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maxkardinal wrote:

I strongly beleave that person, who is responsible for Labyrinth design riding to the GGG's office on It-bike from South Park. Because only person with that understanding of "good design" could come up with Lab as it is now (and will still be).

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Mahtez wrote:

No matter what with even these few chances lab still sucks. You don't even address the retarded traps an the over damage they do. You don't address loosing a connection in Uber labs. Make more portals an address traps and what ever else to make labs not suck. In conclusion labs still suck.

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Gorila_Power wrote:

Maybe is a question of time, the reason GGG is doinng this way. IF they have to revamp to Lab completly they have to delay Fall of Oriathh further more.
So my Idea to improve Lab Is the following. I don`t know what the level of the zones of trials will be but i think if GGG do it right they could set trials in some manner that they match the points that you likely have to do Labs in current way so they can set what i have in mind, that is:
-6 trials (you fight Izaro at end of of each off them and you are rewarded with a ascency point if successful) so this way u dont have to do Labs for Ascency, off course trials should be a little longer(like uber trials but not that lengthy) and have a adicional room for Izaro fight. When enter room you get full healed and pots should be automatic full to be a fair fight.You just get Ascendecy points, no chests our enchants.
-After the 6 trials are complet you can enter "Merciless" Lab were you can have everything you get in the current merciless lab except that you already have the Ascendecy Points so you just do it if masochist,want chest keys and\or enchants. To be a little rewarding run this Lab you could get twice the keys or double enchants you normaly do or get a Offering to Godess where you
currently click to get the Ascendecy when you successful completed.
-Uber trials and Uber Lab are fine mechanically speaking. GGG should increase the spawn of trials to at last one every 3 maps and add a choice so you can increase the level of Uber Lab to 80 or more (optional of course) ,they should nerf poison darts slow or make plates that activate them a little more prominent speciallly when they are together with other traps because I die to many times for them LOL.
-To get uber Ascency points you will have option at entrance to only need to defeat Izaro once, but the Izaro rooms are reversed so you will get a full buffed Izaro more traps in the 1st Izaro room(Rest in pepperonis) and have to take half life of him , if you continue the Lab next phases will be 1/4 life each and rooms are reversed so you get a "less buffed" Izaro in the end . You dont want to do full Lab for points you have the coice to do so but you get full buff Izaro is your choice.
-Reward system for peeps that reach end of the Uber Lab should be the same as now with some tweeks like a chest that could give essence like orb enchants(random nº) so you still have "normal" enchants but you could get essence like orbs that transform a normal item in a rare with that enchant as suffix but other affixs are random like in a essence use.

And thats it! Sorry for bad english and thank you for Not Reading.

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MuesliKriega wrote:

Just completely remove the lab please, it is absolutely terrible and taints every every POE-Time I have to spend in it.

Keep Izaro and his voice, though.

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Lëgend wrote:

Like the other 44 pages said before...
Please, give us the chance to make an easier Lab to get only the ascendancy points and let expertise people to run actual versions to get keys, rewards and enchants.

As a semi-casual player, I ever desing my own builds thinking in 2 ascendancy points, max 4.
This limits my character, I know, but the idea to be killed on Izaro at high level and rerun AGAIN all lab... pffff...

But I would like to say something more:
Why if I wish the ascencancy-passive of Fortitude (100% time with Fortify buff) I should be ONLY a duelist?

I play first time PoE because "you can do your char as you wish, fully customization".
And this customization is not true yet.
I can do with passives a character as I wish... making it less efective if I change the "natural" char playstyle, but game gives me this freedom.
But with ascendancy can't have this option.

My suggestion (i know a lot of people will dislike me), is to let players to get access to other classes ascencancy trees with 2 ascendancy points.

For example:
I play with a witch, get 2 ascendancy points.
I can get 2 ascendancy passives from my tree OR unlock the access to another ascendancy class tree
Imagine I unlock the duelist-champion tree.
Will have it unlocked, but 0 ascendancy points free (unlock another class tree costs 2 points9
After completing the second lab, will have 2 points to spend only on the champion tree

Players that plays with duelist, will have 8 points to spend at end of uber-lab, but who unlocked the other class tree, only have 6 points, making they less efective but full customized :)

ps: I really-really-really hate duelist character, I can't play with it, i hate it, but their 100%-full-time-fortify ascendancy point... i wish it a lot... but I hate duelist.

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Nicksiren wrote:

Disappointing to hear. Repeating the lab 4 times is incredibly boring when you've already played 30+ characters considering it's forced content. This is a bad decision.

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nuveau wrote:

For what it's worth, I hate the lab too. I sigh every time I set foot across the entrance.

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Veonder wrote:

Well, I am totally disappointed at how those the changes in Labyrinth are taking place, because they dont change nothing at all:
1. POE game crashes in Labyrinth -> it is connected to multithreading bug and the only solution for me is to turn off multitreading option, but it causes very slow performance - there is nothin about fixing that.
2. Labyrinth is very hard for some builds and it slows progress of such characters especially in standalone version
3. It shouldn't be obligatory and connected to ascendancy points

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gunnzi wrote:

I've been playing on and off since closed beta and to me, labs is the only time I feel GGG has made a huge mistake.
Much of my excitement for 3.0 came from the supposed changes to labs, but this is far from what I had hoped for.
I don't want to sound entitled but I can't see why we can't compromise on this so that people on both sides are happy.
I get that some people actually enjoy running labs, good for you.
There's no need to remove labs, make it optional, people who enjoy labs can still farm uber labs since its quite profitable.
Last league I made like 7 characters and progressed to maps, some of them I just ignored labs since I hate it so damn much.

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The_Reporter wrote:

Awesome job, Turtle. :)

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The_Reporter wrote:

He did it perfectly as a service to GGG.

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The_Reporter wrote:

It compiles the relevant posts for them to easily read all at once.

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The_Reporter wrote:

You seem upset. Here, have a snickers.