It's been quite the time since I've posted here, and after some investment I can say Deadeye Barrage-Iceshot is definitely doing great if invested with ample currency. The advantage is it probably feels better at the high end vs other builds due to the movement speed and clearing gameplay.
Correct me if the viewpoint has changed but I believe Fork is still being advocated for and while it probably does well I strongly suggest trying out or swapping to chain, it simply functions far smoother to the point where you can shoot in a vicinity and care much less about angles etc. Goes without saying it does far more damage with the Deadeye (+10% dmg per chain).
Slottm has given great advice with excellent detail but for myself I found everything actually got easier once there was actually concentrated focus for damage and evasion on gear, rather than hp. E.g. at a certain point I was sitting at ~5.2k hp but 47% evasion and deaths were more of a phenomenon than current times. Obviously for bosses you may want to swap out tree points or certain gear (kaom's boots) for Uber Elder where certain mechanics should be nullified. With an awakened atlas killing things before they can initiate their attacks seem to be key. With higher damage it gets much easier to permafreeze bosses also. A tactic I like employing these days is actually using iceshot instead of barrage on bosses like Malachai from T15 Core.
Pandemonius and Voidfletcher definitely are NOT baits, the guaranteed blind helps massively. Thing about voidfletcher is it isn't calculated properly in the PoB, it's definitely superior to the quiver generation imo. But a major reason voidfletcher works so well is the interaction it has with the Heart of Ice annointment. It provides energy shield which is continually being regenerated by Heart of Ice - it's effectively ~200 more eHP.
Playing less these days with 8.3 WoW patch coming out in full force but feel free to message me if I'm online for some pointers regarding the chaotic joy that is Deadeye this league :P
Edit: I would also like to reiterate for the nodes next to Primeval Force (bottom right), it most definitely is ideal to not go for the top nodes but rather the bottom nodes (chance to freeze, shock, ignite). There was a slight lack of understanding for game mechanics that advocated for the former
with enough damage, the bonus from richochet becomes insignificant, for a clearing link either of the 3 works fine, i just prefer fork.
the most you can get from voidfletcher is 84 energy shield since acrobatics makes all es 30% less. that said it is still a good quiver for quick burst damage. I have done calculations accounting voidshot damage, a rare quiver still seems better with frenzy gen.
for primaeval force, can you elaborate what mechanics I am overlooking?
even if you have 100% chance to shock, you still cant shock bosses without enough lightning damage.
"
bcutter wrote:
Here is my take in the build:
https://pastebin.com/5EyD2G3Y
starting as Pathfinder i went to deadeye and then switched to raider for a massive boost in singletarget and way more dodge+evade.
running 8 frenzy that are always up, getting tailwind of my boots i feel no difference in clear to beeing deadeye.
iam trying GMP over added cold on my iceshot clear, a bit unsure what i like more cause i clear the screen with any click either way. probably going GMP for even more area coverage.
i might have missed it, but i didnt see anyone mention culling strike gloves. I feel that this helps immense against metamorphs and bosses.
why is noone using yoke of the suffering as amulet? Pandemonius is ~50k more dps if i dont count shock. Blind is covered with the claw notes - i dont see a reason to skip yoke as it gives realy nice resist too.
a bit unsure where to go next with my gear, switched to my quiver a few hours ago as it gives ~350k more barrage dps over voidfletcher with added fire corruption. Singletarget feels the same, and one more arrow is always welcome for clear.
killed AWK8 Sirus - iam so bad at mechanics that i needed 4 trys before i succeded.
Thanks for your effort creating and supporting this build to anyone.
Thanks for the mention, I have added culling strike to the gearing section.
Hey Aquarism, thanks for the build and all the work you put in for fellow Deadeye players.
Every player decides to play the game at their own pace which is great, innately though PoE is a min-maxing wonderland and many are approaching comfortable wealth about 5 weeks in, hence it would be feasible to state below what the endgame is transitioning into.
Mmm preferring fork is fine since they all feel different, hence stylistically it may be more a vibe an individual could like.
I'm not sure I'd easily accept the "with enough damage" notion though, it takes a lot of currency to be at the stage where ice shot one or two shots mobs, but as stated before the power isn't really in the dmg per chain but obviously the extra chain combined with Awakened Chain support. That being said, the dmg per chain becomes more relevant for players who are still investing and absolutely need the damage, as the Awakening map modifiers require you to clear pretty quick to spawn and defeat conquerors (if that's your thing). This is definitely if boss damage is covered obviously. Not counting conqueror gameplay where you can spawn them at white maps though, even at the high end mapping scene the chain seems to be solely favoured.
Yeah Voidfletcher itself only provides around 80es - paired with fractal thoughts though (which definitely seems to be the end-goal helm) ES hp gets to about ~200. I think the sacrifice or compromise with going the frenzy quiver is the emphasis on the frenzy nodes, which also does not seem to be the go at the endgame scene. If generating them with only a boss nearby, tbh there doesn't seem to be much of a point if you kill them before the charges are generated.
For primeval force I believe it was Slottm pushing for it actually - yep perhaps bosses are a different story with SHOCK, but the freeze and ignite basically secure the additional chance to proc (granted you have at least a tiny bit of fire damage from jewels etc). The shock would also be less of a hindrance to apply on non-bosses hence even a little lightning damage is what people gear towards. Ignite working very well with Cinderswallow (crafted with crit) which works great in the mapping scenario. Discounting bosses though, the majority of what is fought is obviously the normal, magic and rare mobs for which the extra chance to freeze is incredibly welcome. I believe those 2 nodes are actually what make ignite and shock practically applicable (as long as you have a tiny bit of fire/lightning flat) instead of the other way around where you'd only rely on the damage being the source of ailments.
I'm aware that crits guarantee the ailments, however even with a watcher's eye crit chance is around ~60% hence the additional freeze is an incredible safety net. Comes down to the easy question of if you want to prioritise free safety for "on paper/tooltip" 4% of elemental damage and technically less practical damage
...
btw what else do you like about raider specifically? I've wanted to try it out - seems cool
i cant check for exact numbers since iam at work, but when i keep the tree and the POB config the same raider gave me like
40% more DPS
20% more dodge
30% more evade
I use Chain in my Iceshot setup, and using GMP feels the same as beeing Deadeye (as u have Tailwind from boots)
I got another arrow of my quiver since i changed from Voidfletcher and use added cold for more DPS again. Getting additional arrow of Opus, Quiver and Dying Sun is more the enough to cover the screen. For delving i like GMP more because it hits EVERYTHING in my way and i dont have to stop to shoot again. Mirage archer asside ;)
To me beeing raider "feels" tankier too. I drop T16 Metamorphs in 2-4 sec. depending on mods. Conquerers die before they start doing anything. But i need flasks, so i might leave the map to refill flasks after die Map-boss is dead.
I do get oneshottet here and there, and leveling past 95 is a PITA but its possible. Trying to get sulphite cap and start ~50k sulphite with ~50% xp should push me to 96 soon.
still debating on Yoke -> Pandeminus. 10% Blind with our attackspeed is more then enough to blind reliably i assume. and yoke is more dmg when you account the status ailments dmg bonus.
cheers
Interesting points, seems to be doing really well for you and sounds like a lot of fun, thanks for the insights I may play raider in the future
You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.
Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)
Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000
This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.
On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.
Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.
Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.
On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)
Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.
Last edited by Slottm#1159 on Jan 20, 2020, 11:45:40 AM
You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.
Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)
Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000
This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.
On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.
Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.
Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.
On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)
Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.
Just wanted to say, unlike freeze chill and shock, ignite does not have a threshold. Any Crit will inflict ignite as long as you have any source of fire damage. That’s why the taming is recommended, 80% increased elemental damage.
My Ice Shot Guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2660684
Standard Crafting Service: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2623978
You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.
Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)
Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000
This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.
On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.
Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.
Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.
On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)
Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.
Just wanted to say, unlike freeze chill and shock, ignite does not have a threshold. Any Crit will inflict ignite as long as you have any source of fire damage. That’s why the taming is recommended, 80% increased elemental damage.
Well, good points - but does this not force us to use Yoke of the suffering as Amulet of choice? Realy cheap, your chilling hits will put shock on the mob too (even it might be low) and you get inc. dmg taken for chill shock and ignite.
iam using yoke, but according to poe ninja almost noone else does.
Yoke basically only gives shock. It is quite weak for an amulet. I’m not at desktop atm so I can’t calculate what degree of a shock it is, 5% or 50%. Or is it worth swapping for a rare amulet or Pandemonius
My Ice Shot Guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2660684
Standard Crafting Service: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2623978
You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.
Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)
Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000
This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.
On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of fire damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 fire damage. Your fire damage is too low to even be considered to put burning on the monster.
Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.
Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock or burn unless your other damage types are absurd.
On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)
When I was quoting you, it was to say you were AGAINST the 2 nodes, so that is in line with your thought process here for it. I mentioned that so as to let Aqua now it wasn't necessarily his details I was questioning.
"Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand"
No need to be condescending there dude, it helps having multiple perspectives and I've already said in the past I acknowledged your help with people on this forum. Let's be on the side of the people rather than trying to oppose one another simply because we have opposing information, is that clear?
Your calcs on shaper are correct, however that's an incredibly narrow lens for the content that I stated was probably 5% of what people fight against in their maps. By 5% I mean actual bosses like the conquerors, Sirus, elder, shaper, Uber where they can't be frozen. For unique bosses you can still absolutely freeze them to death hence the chance to freeze definitely is a factor. Not only that but rare mobs depending can take 3-4 iceshots and when you're surrounded by them you'd rather have the additional freeze chance. Hence your math proves true only for the minority of fighting where freeze can't happen on a boss anyways. No one is expecting to freeze a boss, it's the freeze and shock on rare mobs that don't die instantly people are concerned with.
Now, disregarding bosses, this is where I believe the understanding on igniting/shock is lacking.
"Lets say you add a little bit of fire damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 fire damage. Your fire damage is too low to even be considered to put burning on the monster."
That there is not the case at all, many rangers run a tiny bit of flat fire (most times from a single source like jewel) for the ignite effect to occur. It computes like this if you have the nodes:
1(Prerequisite).Do you have a chance to ignite: Yes, 10%
2. Do you have the flat damage required to ignite: Yes, even a tiny bit from a jewel
Whereas without the nodes you have the flat damage but without a main primer or prerequisite.
Talking about the math is one thing, for evidence though, I only have fire damage on one of my jewels and monsters get ignited just fine. It's important for a build like this to state the chance to apply those ailments is more important than simply 4% more elemental damage... people like myself use Cinderswallow which requires interacting with ignited mobs, and other people using The Taming requires all three elemental mods to amp their damage.
Notable players (Cutedog) and level 100 Deadeyes with confirmed knowledge and ladder accomplishments largely gravitate toward the bottom nodes. It's a bit strange for you, who was advocating for survivability through life nodes etc would consider 4% wed more important than securing freezes against t16 map bosses and swarms of rare mobs. Hence the only reason you'd have this viewpoint is if you lacked understanding of ignite being a possibility or not realising the value of these ailments on all content barring the one or two bosses we run every 40 maps versus the actual bosses and mobs in those 40maps. As stated no one is expecting to freeze kill Sirus before he can cast a storm, that's established knowledge.
I don't see how chain is less relevant just because it's not on barrage? It's not like you run fork on barrage. Chain is far more reliable for going on autopilot, it's like aimbotting with where you aim in a general vicinity and regardless of angle it latches on to something surprisingly far away - that is the strength of it. I did say though, if you like fork, sure, Aqua says any of the three is fine anyways. But I'm not going to NOT support Chain, I already stated why the dmg per chain can be important for those still investing. It's a bit aggressive to call chain meaningless when it's level 1 awakened value (simply for having an extra chain) is starting at 10ex, and more or less all endgame users opt for it. On my searches for differing build patterns fork was incredibly rare to see, and it comes down to functionality: people grinding 100 aren't kidding around yo.
You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.
Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)
Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000
This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.
On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.
Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.
Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.
On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)
Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.
Lol @ changing the quote "On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster." from fire to lightning damage. That is why I pointed out earlier there was a lack of understanding in this regard. You could at least own up to the ignite factor. It's not meaningless, as Aqua stated for one, it is used for The Taming for all the damage. It isn't the burn damage or w/e it's the ailment interacting with other items such as Cinderswallow, taming etc.
