lets discuss - "exploit early, exploit often" is new legit meta? or its become new rule?

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

Seems about right, I think.

"Exploit bad, don't do it. But if enough people do it, it's OK" seems to be the precedence set this league. If they suddenly ban someone next time, you might call it flip-flop'ing, even though people's tears will be sweet. At the end of the day, how are we supposed to respect the ToS going forward, when GGG don't?

They aren't disrespecting the Terms though.The TOU gives them the right

Stop giving legal advice.

Terms are just that, "terms" - they are not contracts.

Once you give GGG/ tencent/whatever entity is running PoE today something, some money whatever, you have unlimited access in perpetuity to your account.

There is no lawful way for GGG to prevent you from enjoying the account features you paid for.

End of story.

And no, being a GGG white-knight doesn't change the consumer protection acts and contract law in my jurisdiction.

Have a wonderful day.

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Orca_Orcinus wrote:

Stop giving legal advice.

I wasn't giving legal advice. I was commenting on the terms and the idea of GGG 'disrespecting' them.

Please, anyone reading this: do not aim to get legal advice from videogame forums. For clarity on your rights and responsibilities, refer to the consumer law authority where you live. Thank you. Jesus.

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Orca_Orcinus wrote:

There is no lawful way for GGG to prevent you from enjoying the account features you paid for.

Stop giving legal advice. Isn't that what we say to statements like this?

And no, disagreeing that GGG have 'disrespected the terms' does not make someone a "GGG white-knight". This isn't a team sport where there are only two extreme positions. I just mildly pushed back against one statement.

I am once again begging gamers to take a breath and get some perspective.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

How do you reconcile equating the creation of impossible items in Path of Exile (such as 6-linked Kaom's Heart) and playing Lancing Steel CoC Detonate Dead Inquisitor or whatever you consider an OP build?

Because in many ways its an ethical debate, Pbrand last league was more OP than most skills on a 12 link for example so likely had a much bigger impact that league, explodo totems was similar in crucible too.

that being said its pretty clear that it wasn't intended to be able to give Kaoms 6 sockets and was much more directly a bug rather than just a poor choice of values for something.

I'd prefer if they avoided both ^^

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

How do you reconcile equating the creation of impossible items in Path of Exile (such as 6-linked Kaom's Heart) and playing Lancing Steel CoC Detonate Dead Inquisitor or whatever you consider an OP build?

Because in many ways its an ethical debate, Pbrand last league was more OP than most skills on a 12 link for example so likely had a much bigger impact that league, explodo totems was similar in crucible too.

that being said its pretty clear that it wasn't intended to be able to give Kaoms 6 sockets and was much more directly a bug rather than just a poor choice of values for something.

I'd prefer if they avoided both ^^

I am not asking him if it's ethical to play OP skills. That is everyone's right to decide for themselves and ultimately it's up to GGG to balance their game however they like.

The other side is abusing a bug that is obviously a bug and therefore unintentional on GGG's side & against what they think should be possible in the game. Items like Grey Spire or Kaom's Heart come with the downside of having no sockets as a tradeoff for having inherent unique advantages. They are not meant to have sockets and explicitly state so.

That's why I was flabbergasted when I read his response where he states, and I quote:

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mefistozxz wrote:

Because YOU are the one deciding that the item is impossible!

I didn't make that decision, GGG did. If you use a Jeweller Orb on a Grey Spire it will tell you that it already has the maximum number of sockets. Why then do you think a beast should be able to set the socket number to 6? It is obvious that this is unintentional behaviour and a bug, which is precisely why I have been asking for punishment for people who did this knowing it was one.

The very fact that he has to put "bugs" into quotation marks in his reply to me says it all. He only does so because in his mind he equates to unintentional bugs to playing a strong meta build which is ridiculous.

That being said, I'm with you on avoiding both. Difference being that the Einhar bug clearly wasn't on their 'agenda' so to speak and Explody totems were meant to be in the game such as they were (until they got nerfed to the ground, but they had their time in the spotlight)

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

How do you reconcile equating the creation of impossible items in Path of Exile (such as 6-linked Kaom's Heart) and playing Lancing Steel CoC Detonate Dead Inquisitor or whatever you consider an OP build?

Because in many ways its an ethical debate, Pbrand last league was more OP than most skills on a 12 link for example so likely had a much bigger impact that league, explodo totems was similar in crucible too.

that being said its pretty clear that it wasn't intended to be able to give Kaoms 6 sockets and was much more directly a bug rather than just a poor choice of values for something.

I'd prefer if they avoided both ^^

This is PRECISELY the argument I am trying to make. And no....I put bugs in quotes because what is very clearly "bugged" content seems to mean something very different to you, but it does NOT mean something different to me.

A "bug" = an unintentional mistake in the code which causes unintended behavior. To me, a skill like PBoD was a BUG. To me, spires and ghosts and t17 uniques are BUGS. But for some reason you DON'T see it that way, and that I simply can't wrap my mind around. It is just as clear to me that these things are completely equivalent to a bugged item. The only difference is the bugged item is instantly straight up VISIBLE, whereas you have to actually THINK about how the other situations are bugged.

I used quotes because for some reason, a bug is something very different in your eyes even when the situations and ultimately the coding error is exactly the same.

Again I would ask: why are impossible items any different than impossible loot or impossible strength or impossible...you name it. They are all bugs, in that GGG is forced to fix the problem. The difference is how and when GGG fixes them afterward.

The difference is intent, and words have meaning.

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Orca_Orcinus wrote:

Stop giving legal advice.

Terms are just that, "terms" - they are not contracts.

Uh.....they absolutely ARE contracts and legal documents. The word "terms" has nothing to do with a document that you SIGN before ever opening the game. Have you ever even READ the terms? It literally says right in there something along the lines of "breaking these terms gives GGG the right to take legal action against you" and also "legal action cannot be taken against GGG for in-game issues".

Reading is a wonderful skill to practice and use!

Hell....a single google search yields about 30 links that ALL say "a legal contract between the provider and user" even before you read the ACTUAL ToU lol.

If reading is a problem, then watch the Human Cent-IPad south park episode.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The difference is intent, and words have meaning.

Okay, intent then: what makes someone who exploits this particular crafting method any worse than someone who exploits a CLEARLY bugged farming strategy? Why is this moment any worse than people choosing to exploit a clearly bugged, messed up skill, for the purposes of essentially "hacking" (double entendre intended) your way through the game?

I see no difference in intent either. The choice is always: How can I gain an edge or make the most for myself?

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mefistozxz wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The difference is intent, and words have meaning.

Okay, intent then: what makes someone who exploits this particular crafting method any worse than someone who exploits a CLEARLY bugged farming strategy? Why is this moment any worse than people choosing to exploit a clearly bugged, messed up skill, for the purposes of essentially "hacking" (double entendre intended) your way through the game?

I see no difference in intent either. The choice is always: How can I gain an edge or make the most for myself?

As much as gamers love their hyperboles such as calling balance "broken", it just simply doesn't equate to actually breaking the game by creating items that were never meant to be possible.

In the grand scheme of things, the game doesn't change fundamentally if you are able to kill a pinnacle boss on a silly skill. However, having a 6-link where you are not supposed to have one? That's actually broken.

Some more examples:
- 6-linked Mjolnir
- 6-linked Squire

Both Mjolnir and Squire would naturally only be able to roll 3 sockets, the bug would however allow you to use a Mjolnir with 3 skills triggering from attacks, each being a 7-link.

Clearly unintended.

You, on the other hand, are drawing a false equivalence by comparing pair of shoes; one pair you have to tie, the other you just slip on. For you see, not having to tie your shoes saves you so much time and it's so much more convenient, why would you ever buy shoes with laces?

^and this is where we completely disconnect yet again.

Everything you just wrote is.....personal opinion. To me, gaining an unintended amount of loot is just as, if not MORE gamebreaking than a 6L mjolner could ever be.

A skill that is 100x more powerful than it really SHOULD be is way more gamebreaking than a single bugged item, because it transcends items completely.

You see one situation as completely normal gameplay, albeit imbalanced. I fundamentally disagree. To use your wording, these situations are just as broken, just as "actually game-breaking" or MORE game breaking. Just as much changing the fundamental gameplay and fundamental game environment negatively and unintentionally.

Extreme imbalance (your words) or BUGGED balance is just as, if not MORE, damaging dangerous and buggy within the game environment. Not only that, but it has a greater effect on the wider playerbase rather than isolated primarily in individual power.

You keep pointing to the items themselves as being impossible and therefore wrong, while continuing to ignore the other things that should be impossible that you, I, and everyone regularly abuse. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you are completely caught up in the VISUAL of the bugged item, the obviousness, and can't see the forest for the trees: the less obvious yet just as damaging, just as bugged, just as messed up design and player behavior.

Creating a 6L mjolner is just as impossible as dropping 25 unique belts from one monster. Just as impossible as dropping 1000 fractured items all at once. Just as impossible as dropping 100s or 1000s of divines and scarabs in a single map. If 10+ years of playing this game has shown anything...this is just as much not normal gameplay as having the 6L squire.

I said I wanted to stop a while ago: I really am going to walk away from this. Clearly you are set in your ways. I disagree. All this started with a simple "I don't think they should be banned, because it was ultimately GGG's fault to begin with" and GGG came to the same conclusion as me. People weren't banned, and the problem was removed.