Every Single Archetype Character Fantasy in this game and how it should be. CHECK THIS.

"

So arguably armour should be made stronger? Or shield weaker?
How does poe2 math even work?

To answer this...

Damage Reduction Formula
The formula below is used to calculate the Damage Reduction provided by Armour, where AR is the total Armour value of the defender and DMG is the total Physical Damage in the Hit taken by the defender.

Armour Formula
damage reduction= armour/armour + 10*Damage.

Armour can mitigate Physical Damage up to a fifth of its total value. For example a character with 20,000 Armour is able to mitigate up to 4000 Physical Damage from a single Hit with the Damage Reduction provided by Armour alone. However, at the opposite end of the scale when the Physical Damage in a Hit largely exceeds the total Armour value, Armour will not mitigate more than a tenth of its value in Damage at its minimum level of mitigation.

The following list provides some examples of the Damage Reduction provided by Armour at given levels of Armour vs Hit Damage:

To mitigate 33.3% you need Armour equal to 5 times the Damage
To mitigate 50% you need Armour equal to 10 times the Damage
To mitigate 66.6% you need Armour equal to 20 times the Damage
To mitigate 75% you need Armour equal to 30 times the Damage
To mitigate 90% you need Armour equal to 90 times the Damage
Physical Damage Reduction is hard-capped at 90% from all sources, including Armour.

In POE 1 it were armour/armour + 5*damage.

https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Armour

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Guide:Armour_calculations

"

But a recall to traditional fantasy archetypes mages usually don't really involved in physical combat since with firewall/iceblast they don't really let enemies get near to them.

Thats not really true, there is a battlemage archtipe wich would be templar in poe 1 wich is melee + elemental magical damage, totems, auras etc... Also Druids/chamans also are this kind of thing depending on the game.

In this one, monks and shadow also falls into this category.

So no. Its more like a defensive barrier that is depleted as I explained before.
While life is a regenerative resource, Energy shield should b a time barrier.

So no, the value of life is that u can sustain it. U get damage reduction through armour and resitances untill u get an ammount u can sustain due to ur regen or leech.
Using ur rise shield as a momentary relief in the middle of a long fight so u get some extra regen for a short duration if u are being overwhelmed.

Energy shield, even with armour and resistances is something u cant regenerate while taking damage.
So its gonna be depleted unless u finish ur enemy, disengage o hard CC ur enemy so he doesent attack you.

So Energy shield is oriented for burst characters while life has more value for sustainable combat.

"

Sarke#5416 wrote:

"

So arguably armour should be made stronger? Or shield weaker?
How does poe2 math even work?

To answer this...

Damage Reduction Formula
The formula below is used to calculate the Damage Reduction provided by Armour, where AR is the total Armour value of the defender and DMG is the total Physical Damage in the Hit taken by the defender.

Armour Formula
damage reduction= armour/armour + 10*Damage.

Armour can mitigate Physical Damage up to a fifth of its total value. For example a character with 20,000 Armour is able to mitigate up to 4000 Physical Damage from a single Hit with the Damage Reduction provided by Armour alone. However, at the opposite end of the scale when the Physical Damage in a Hit largely exceeds the total Armour value, Armour will not mitigate more than a tenth of its value in Damage at its minimum level of mitigation.

The following list provides some examples of the Damage Reduction provided by Armour at given levels of Armour vs Hit Damage:

To mitigate 33.3% you need Armour equal to 5 times the Damage
To mitigate 50% you need Armour equal to 10 times the Damage
To mitigate 66.6% you need Armour equal to 20 times the Damage
To mitigate 75% you need Armour equal to 30 times the Damage
To mitigate 90% you need Armour equal to 90 times the Damage
Physical Damage Reduction is hard-capped at 90% from all sources, including Armour.

In POE 1 it were armour/armour + 5*damage.

https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Armour

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Guide:Armour_calculations

Ive seen the formula, but couldn't find the damage of enemies.

I somewhere seen a website that tells boss skills. And a slam ability hits like 40k, good luck to mitigate that. :D

On "how math works" I meant how can we keep up?

The thing is up until early map the game is fine.
We have class identity, when you die, you feel you were just silly and did not dodged in time, or you knew you just did not had enough resistances.

Felt pretty annoying dying like 10 time by the hands of Silverfist. If a warrior with full armour and a shield gets oneshotted by that ape, what other classes experience?
I don't want to be immortal, but Im supposed to be that monkeys hard counter :D

But endgame the formula just escalates out of orbit.

Early game devs stated in an interview that the game is balanced around that everyone has 0 mitigation.
So whats the endgame?
Because you know your milestone is to hit 75% defenses and resistances.
Im around t12-13 maps now, only chaos res needs to be hit. Yet I am oneshotted.

And there's still plenty of game left I suppose.
And quite hard to get item upgrades because I need all mods to be an improvement now. In early maps I could afford to have evasion or reduced stat req mods. Now everything goes to the garbage.
The chance of finding an item with STR, 2 resistance, life mod is getting lower and lower now.

Or hope just more dps stats because seems the endgame balanced around offense not defenses. Having all dmg reduction cap is mandatory, not optional.

Meanwhile we discuss about single passive stat mechanics hoping it would make the game better.

I am not a fan of "passive skills"
Yeah... i can keep grinding until I brake the formula. But that would only mean I can walk through the map.

in fact that's my current issue.
I either don't feel the enemies or gets oneshotted and try to figure out what mistake I have even done?
And community is like:
gitgudgear

"

Its a bad mechanic that you can get 75% chance to absolutely ignore incoming damage.

Theres a key node on the archer side [Glancing Hits] Increase block chance by 30% but you get 10% of the damage.

No its not since u are still getting the 25% of the hits, so u are still getting damage constantly. Making E shield not the best option for any shield character

(this is the why Aegis aurora were the best shield in POE 1, it enabled u, as an E shield user to get shield playstyle and becoming a battlemage)

Also there were a node in POE 1 called Glancing blows that did that.
Double ur chance to block but u get a 50% af all damage.

Combine this 2 things and u will have an armour stacker like my main character in poe 1.
Also there were a weapon that were giving u a 1% of ur armour as increased attack damage.

I love that character.

But I dnt think that avoiding 75% of the hits are a bad mecanic at all since is not unlimited as it were in POE 1 once u were inmune to stuns.

Here u will eventually get stunned or frozen or whatever wich will stop u from blocking.
So block became just a situational relieff to refill ur life pool for short duration by rising shield.

Or at lest thats how it should be.

Because what I experience from the formula?
T12 maps? Almost fell asleep. My hp doesn't even move.
Goes to alert mode when volatile plant rare met.

T13 maps are worrisome, but doable.

t14 map experience:
https://youtu.be/uuB-emHooIQ?si=r1X169-PpNPEJYsY&t=142

"

Ive seen the formula, but couldn't find the damage of enemies.

I somewhere seen a website that tells boss skills. And a slam ability hits like 40k, good luck to mitigate that. :D

On "how math works" I meant how can we keep up?

The thing is up until early map the game is fine.
We have class identity, when you die, you feel you were just silly and did not dodged in time, or you knew you just did not had enough resistances.

Felt pretty annoying dying like 10 time by the hands of Silverfist. If a warrior with full armour and a shield gets oneshotted by that ape, what other classes experience?
I don't want to be immortal, but Im supposed to be that monkeys hard counter :D

But endgame the formula just escalates out of orbit.

Early game devs stated in an interview that the game is balanced around that everyone has 0 mitigation.
So whats the endgame?
Because you know your milestone is to hit 75% defenses and resistances.
Im around t12-13 maps now, only chaos res needs to be hit. Yet I am oneshotted.

And there's still plenty of game left I suppose.
And quite hard to get item upgrades because I need all mods to be an improvement now. In early maps I could afford to have evasion or reduced stat req mods. Now everything goes to the garbage.
The chance of finding an item with STR, 2 resistance, life mod is getting lower and lower now.

Or hope just more dps stats because seems the endgame balanced around offense not defenses. Having all dmg reduction cap is mandatory, not optional.

Meanwhile we discuss about single passive stat mechanics hoping it would make the game better.

I am not a fan of "passive skills"
Yeah... i can keep grinding until I brake the formula. But that would only mean I can walk through the map.

in fact that's my current issue.
I either don't feel the enemies or gets oneshotted and try to figure out what mistake I have even done?
And community is like:
gitgudgear

I understand how u feeling. But thats a balance issue that is really really horrible at the moment.
Wich is that armour formula when u cross it with the damage ratios from campaigne untill last endgame bossfight.

Is not even close to b tunned up. IS a completly mess right now.

Theres nothing to argue about that. Them simply did bad maths.

"

I was thinking about a double buff:
evasion chance and recoup efficiency?
Theres a few option.
Either evasion is strickly recoup. So you have evasion chance to recoup the damage?
Or you need recoup stats still but evasion would increase the damage amount you recoup?

Lets get to the extreme min-max again. How would you balance a character with 75% evasion (not sure if it can be raised to 90% but tooltip says that's the hard cap)
So 75% of the time you get rally? Aka you need to damage enemies to get health back? Or you do a hit n run style? As soon you see you got hit you just walk out for 4 seconds until your damage is recovered?
Or when you have 75% evasion that would increase the recoup stats by 75% too?

U still thinking here that having 75% chance to avoid all incoming damage is something unbalanceable when is not.

Ok... Lets explain this.

Lets say u have 0 armour and 75% evasion life bassed character.

U avoid 3/4 of the hits u get but the one that hits u, does it in full damage. so it simply 1 hit you.

Lets say u have 75% damage reduction by armour and u get hitted 4 times. The amount of damage is the same but u got it spreaded in time so its much easier to sustain by regen/ leech.

So To b a evasion character usually u need to mix evasion with something else to reduce the incomming damage since evasion by itself make u die every single map.

So u have 2 options:

1 is Having a big amount of E shield. So u are not 1 shooted and then avoid avoid avoid avoid and then the E shield recharge make u full again wich provide u with the hability to resist another hit.

2 option: Having some armour and life regen. So the armour reduce the damage and the life regen will heal u up.
Since most of life regen in in warrior side of the tree u will not have that many nodes avivable as a warrior does. So u will never regen as a warrior.
Wich means ur regen will b slow, while u keep dodging so u still rely on evasion.

Same with Energy shield. Since most faster E shield recharge will be in the mage side of the tree, u will not have that resource like a mage does. So u will have to rely on keep dodging to give the e shield time to start the recharge.

So what are ur extra lawyers options there? Potions, recoup maybe, or simply cc to make enemies not hit you that often.
Thats the gameplay as ranger. And the concept is balanced belive me.

So yeah.

In both cases 75% evasion or 75% block, not taking 3/4 of the hits are perfectly working and balanceable.
One by cutting the regen sources and the other, luckily now that we have rise shield, cause it should be a short duration block and not a constant thing.

Well... the skilltree and classes are practically a giant spiderweb chart where we have the 3 extremes:

STR - Armour
Dex - Evasion
INT - Energy shield

And the 3 hybrids.
So in a perfect balance 75% block chance full armour warrior should have the same survival rate as a mage with 10k energy shield or someone with 75% evasion.

And we have the hubrids that should have a roughly best of both 50-50s
This is the oversimplified version, because calculating the chances are more complex to find the "stat value" of each class and build.

According to the devs the issue is that everyone is unkillable because they just have too much life, regen and dmg nullification.

Its a secondary issue that seems there's unreasonable amount of regeneration.
Just theoretically, what if flasks would be disabled? Would endgame be more easier to balance?
Because we don't want to force players tediously open portals and recharge flask at the well after every fight either.

In its current form the rock-paper-scissor formula is that evasion and block only counters the physical damage so you still have the other 4 type to worry about.
Armour is slightly better than evasion, because it can trigger thorn, and if you do get hit, bleed and weapon damage based poison is also reduced, while evasion chars getting "true" damage.

"

or simply cc to make enemies not hit you that often.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3769197

I would go for this direction, yes.

Another layer of POE2 endgame issue is that every class is funneled into a 1 or 2 click build by multiple reasons:
- statstacking:
you usually pick 2 stats that improves your damage. So currently I play thorn-armour brake, that means anything that doesn't scale with this is just healing the enemies.
- time management
there's not much cooldown in the game either. After a point you realize you actually waste time if you don't use your powerful skill that you escalated to autoattack level
- enemy damage scale
well... you don't have the luxury to leave enemies alive for long. And that's due to their oneshot mechanics. Theres even a support gem that I call the suicide one: Dauntless.
Seriosly... standing still even for a second is just invitation for death. :D

I would actually like to see crown control combat style, that fits into a swarm style arpg.
Meaningful combat could be to... control the crowd.
Having defensive skills that can work as an oh-sh*t button but having enough cooldown or tradeoff that wouldn't be considered an I-Win button either.

Ie: what if berzerker rage spirit gem would have an active use? Grant immortality until you have rage but you cant regenerate rage until it depletes + 5 seconds and rage depletion starts regardless if you're in combat. And give it a 20 second cooldown.

Shield wall could absorb damage, because in its current form its just a weird autoattack.

More examples in the thread.

"

Well... the skilltree and classes are practically a giant spiderweb chart where we have the 3 extremes:

STR - Armour
Dex - Evasion
INT - Energy shield

U know what I find really funny.

Str in POE 1:

Every 2 strength grants an additional 1 maximum life.
Every 5 strength grants 1% increased melee physical damage.

Dex

Every 10 dexterity grants an additional 20 accuracy rating.
Every 10 dexterity grants 2% increased evasion rating.

Intel

Every 2 intelligence grants an additional 1 mana.
Every 5 intelligence grants 1% increased maximum energy shield.

What Str-Dex-Int gives u in POE 2?

Answer this and u will see the 1st flaw in balance the game has.

"

Sarke#5416 wrote:

"

Well... the skilltree and classes are practically a giant spiderweb chart where we have the 3 extremes:

STR - Armour
Dex - Evasion
INT - Energy shield

U know what I find really funny.

Str in POE 1:

Every 2 strength grants an additional 1 maximum life.
Every 5 strength grants 1% increased melee physical damage.

Dex

Every 10 dexterity grants an additional 20 accuracy rating.
Every 10 dexterity grants 2% increased evasion rating.

Intel

Every 2 intelligence grants an additional 1 mana.
Every 5 intelligence grants 1% increased maximum energy shield.

What Str-Dex-Int gives u in POE 2?

Answer this and u will see the 1st flaw in balance the game has.

In its current form STR = 2 life
INT = 2 mana
DEX = +5 accuracy.

While the items themselves are gatekept behind stats.

Since I like the multilayered discussion there's another topic that we don't play classes we play skillgems.

Yes, you play technically a hybrid class, but in reality, not really, because a lvl20 skill gem will need absurd amount of stats.

No wonder people paying a lot on trade to get a low level gem.
And was thinking how will hybrid classes do stuff?
Or in present state?

Because we still don't have the "cast on block" gem, and we can assume it will need INT to put spells in.
So you will need like 300 STR to equip armor but also need 300 INT to put a spell in?

What about dual wielding classes?
What if someone wants an axe-dagger combo?
But that points back to the skill-funnelling issue, where you want to focus on single skill gem not combos...