BALANCE between Armour/Evasion/ES

ES rules prevail... The others kneel to the king!

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

That's why I said that only a very few players have 10k Life. It is a huge investment to reach so much life, while ES has it easier. I'm advocating to make it easier for life users.

The reason I said that 10k life is stronger then 10k ES is, that a life user also has armour/evasion/block/deflection and Life Steal/Recoup Life/Life Regeneration. But, like I said, 10k life is unrealistic for most players and most are playing with 3-5k life in endgame (some have less, some have more).

But you're wrong. 10k life doesnt have this. They dont have armour, they dont have block, etc etc etc..

Its religated almost entirely to a single ascendancy.

Look at their builds. Its stacked life and thats it for defense. There is no other options. They all run veil, they all run kaoms like.


What are you talking about "stronger"? They have no armour, they have no res, they have NOTHING protecting their life, other than their life.

Do you know how these builds are made?





Most people playing with 3-5k ?

I think you are over selling how many people even get 3k+.

Where are you getting this?

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Eh, that's exactly like it is for most people. You don't reach 10-15k ES and also get a sufficient evasion pool going for you. Same with MoM: Spells cost like 400+ per use in endgame and your mana regeneration will maybe be at 400. Lets not forget that MoM LESSENS mana regeneration by 50%. MoM + high mana cost drains your mana pool within a fraction of a second if getting surrounded.

? What?

No dude.



Look all the CI 10k ES+ with massive evasion like theres thousands of players.

Where as there is 59 people with 10k life builds.


Did you look at any of this before posting?

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

And that's why you see so many people complaining about Life/Armour/Evasion.

People complain about all sorts of things on the forums. Doesnt mean what they have to complain about is an actual problem.


So far OP nothing you have said is even true in your post.

ES cannot recover are you serious?
Convalescence second wind.

You play at ranged mostly as ES so its not like you need to recover as much as Life.....



Do you play POE2 OP?

First: I never said that alot of players have 10k Life. It's the opposite, I clearly said "but I would argue that most players have something between 3-5k life in endgame."

Now open your statistics and take a look of how many thousands of players are at 3-5k life, which is the equivalent of having 12k ES, since people with 3-5k life also have tons of armour/evasion (combinined with "armour counts for elemental damage" and "deflection").

Second: In endgame, all classes can clear a whole screen with their skills with enough AoE or one shot bosses with the right build. I would argue that warrior may be the only class that has the hardest time reaching that kind of clear efficiency.

Third: In my opinion, the only thing that makes ES really strong is CI, since it completely removes one damage source completely. And this damage source is the only weakness of ES, since chaos does double damage to ES. I mean, take a look at your statistics and you see that most of the ES users go for CI. Remove CI and ES wouldn't be half as strong anymore as it is right now. IF you want to nerf ES, then just nerf CI. Like instead it giving chaos immunity, it just provides 75% damage reduction from chaos damage, so ES users still have to go for chaos resistance. But other then that, ES is absolutely fine.

Fourth: You don't seem to understand what I want to achieve here. Right now, people are complaining about random one-shots. Usually these players are playing life based characters. That means, life is in a pretty bad spot right now if you constantly get one-shotted without being able to react. I would also argue, that most complains about 10% experience loss comes from players that have life based characters. So in order to make more people happy, I always favour BUFFS over NERFS. Because BUFFS usually make characters stronger and therefore more players happy, while nerfs can pretty much brick characters. Yes, sometimes something has to be nerfed, like skills that can one-shot tier4 Xesht with like zero investment. This is clearly not intended and doesnt go in line with what GGG wants to achieve with PoE2. But ES? I say that, unless you play a build that oneshots everything, even ES users can easily die against the highest tier bosses.

I mean, I'm not even there yet. I used a juiced T15 map in my third citadel and I completely lacked damage and couldnt beat the boss. I have 12k ES and his attack did 10k damage to me, leaving me very vulnerable for the next 6-7 seconds. In the end, I lost that fight and the citadel. And my gear is definitely not the worst, but obv. not the best either. I just dont play a meta build (Stormweaver crit-frostbolt with Snakebit) and therefore my damage is mediocre. So unless I respec and go for such a meta build, my character can pretty much die easily in Tier15/16 maps. I'm not a pro players that can play PoE2 100 hours a day, but I'm happy that I made it to lvl 93 with the build I have created without following a guide. And for players like me, ES is definitely not overtuned and I dont understand why you guys want to nerf it, when buffing life would be way more logical.

Ah I think I know what brought on this post.

You ought to have kept up with the post Mash and I were originally commenting on

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MathiasSoul#7397 wrote:

Ah I think I know what brought on this post.

You ought to have kept up with the post Mash and I were originally commenting on

Hm?

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

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MathiasSoul#7397 wrote:

Ah I think I know what brought on this post.

You ought to have kept up with the post Mash and I were originally commenting on

Hm?

Was it not from this one? https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3859730/page/4

If not, my bad, but worth a read since it's relevant to this subject

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MathiasSoul#7397 wrote:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

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MathiasSoul#7397 wrote:

Ah I think I know what brought on this post.

You ought to have kept up with the post Mash and I were originally commenting on

Hm?

Was it not from this one? https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3859730/page/4

If not, my bad, but worth a read since it's relevant to this subject

Thanks, I will read it later =)

"

Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

No dude.



Look all the CI 10k ES+ with massive evasion like theres thousands of players.

Where as there is 59 people with 10k life builds.

You did something wrong here. You say "MASSIVE EVASION", but you entered "0 evasion" as a minimum. Lets take a closer look about those "thousands of players":

Right now there are exactly 49 characters having more then 10k ES and 10k Evasion. So these are the THOUSANDS of players you're talking about that have MASSIVE ES and Evasion? Even if I reduce ES to minimum 6k and keep Evasion at 10k, it's still only 656 characters.

Now lets take a look at LIFE, since you said not many have 3k+. We have 13k players over 3k life and 30k with over 2k life. That means, rougly 40% of the player in endgame have more then 4k life. 4800 players have over 10k ES, while 9800 have over 8k ES. That means, half of the ES players in endgame play with less then 10k ES. Ofc you can argue ES users can take CI and MoM, but ofc life users can also take things like deflection, evasion, armour, armour for elemental damage, life regeneration, life recoup, life leech, life on hit, life on kill, life FLASK, block. I've read from enough people that they are like unkillable with their life characters and still clear screens easily.

I'm not saying life is equal to ES, but I dont see ES as overpowered as some do here. And that's why I'm saying life should receive a buff instead of nerfing ES. ES ist not an "auto-win", it's just an easier mechanic compared to others.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

First: I never said that alot of players have 10k Life. It's the opposite, I clearly said "but I would argue that most players have something between 3-5k life in endgame."

Now open your statistics and take a look of how many thousands of players are at 3-5k life, which is the equivalent of having 12k ES, since people with 3-5k life also have tons of armour/evasion (combinined with "armour counts for elemental damage" and "deflection").

No, you said this:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Obviously, 10k life is stronger then 10k ES, but I would argue that most players have something between 3-5k life in endgame.

And then you went into this:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

The reason I said that 10k life is stronger then 10k ES is, that a life user also has armour/evasion/block/deflection and Life Steal/Recoup Life/Life Regeneration.

Because you dont know how 10k life builds were made. You think they are running around with all these extra defensive layers.

Since you dont know how 10k life builds are made.


You are now changing what you are saying here, which is still wrong with this:

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

but I would argue that most players have something between 3-5k life in endgame

Which most life builds at end game, are between lower ranges, 1-3k life,

Than 3-5k life builds.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Second: In endgame, all classes can clear a whole screen with their skills with enough AoE or one shot bosses with the right build. I would argue that warrior may be the only class that has the hardest time reaching that kind of clear efficiency.

What does this have to do with armour/evasion/es?

Your OP is about defenses.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Third: In my opinion, the only thing that makes ES really strong is CI, since it completely removes one damage source completely. And this damage source is the only weakness of ES, since chaos does double damage to ES. I mean, take a look at your statistics and you see that most of the ES users go for CI. Remove CI and ES wouldn't be half as strong anymore as it is right now. IF you want to nerf ES, then just nerf CI. Like instead it giving chaos immunity, it just provides 75% damage reduction from chaos damage, so ES users still have to go for chaos resistance. But other then that, ES is absolutely fine.

CI is not the only issue, the person with the highest ES in the game currently, doesnt even run CI.

MOM is also a problem

Its ability to even reach 10k+ with no downsides and little investment is a problem.

Outright restore ES and/or overcap it are a problem (Meditate, Convalescence, Ghost Dance)

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Fourth: You don't seem to understand what I want to achieve here. Right now, people are complaining about random one-shots. Usually these players are playing life based characters. That means, life is in a pretty bad spot right now if you constantly get one-shotted without being able to react. I would also argue, that most complains about 10% experience loss comes from players that have life based characters. So in order to make more people happy, I always favour BUFFS over NERFS. Because BUFFS usually make characters stronger and therefore more players happy, while nerfs can pretty much brick characters. Yes, sometimes something has to be nerfed, like skills that can one-shot tier4 Xesht with like zero investment. This is clearly not intended and doesnt go in line with what GGG wants to achieve with PoE2. But ES? I say that, unless you play a build that oneshots everything, even ES users can easily die against the highest tier bosses.

Broken + Broken =/= balance

Broken + Broken = More Broken

People complaining about "random one shots" with life?

Sounds like a build issue.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

I mean, I'm not even there yet. I used a juiced T15 map in my third citadel and I completely lacked damage and couldnt beat the boss. I have 12k ES and his attack did 10k damage to me, leaving me very vulnerable for the next 6-7 seconds. In the end, I lost that fight and the citadel. And my gear is definitely not the worst, but obv. not the best either. I just dont play a meta build (Stormweaver crit-frostbolt with Snakebit) and therefore my damage is mediocre. So unless I respec and go for such a meta build, my character can pretty much die easily in Tier15/16 maps. I'm not a pro players that can play PoE2 100 hours a day, but I'm happy that I made it to lvl 93 with the build I have created without following a guide. And for players like me, ES is definitely not overtuned and I dont understand why you guys want to nerf it, when buffing life would be way more logical.

So your build doing no damage or you overjuicing is the issue here.

I dont play "meta" builds either.

93 Fortcry Titan. (Life/Armour)
92 Solar orb Stormweaver. (Life/Armour/ES)

Just because you struggle with something, does not mean the thing you are using is not over tuned. Thats just you not building it well.

This would be like saying:
"well we dont need to nerf LA deadeye, I dont clear screens and deal high damage like those people do"
"We dont need to nerf LS from .2, I dont one shot bosses like those people do"
"We dont need to nerf grim feast and spark from .1, I didnt use ES that high and didnt scale Spark that high"

Just because you decide to scale your character poorly, does not mean the same things someone, thousands of someones, decide to scale very well to where it breaks the game. Means these things are void from nerfs.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

You did something wrong here. You say "MASSIVE EVASION", but you entered "0 evasion" as a minimum. Lets take a closer look about those "thousands of players":

Right now there are exactly 49 characters having more then 10k ES and 10k Evasion. So these are the THOUSANDS of players you're talking about that have MASSIVE ES and Evasion? Even if I reduce ES to minimum 6k and keep Evasion at 10k, it's still only 656 characters.

Now lets take a look at LIFE, since you said not many have 3k+. We have 13k players over 3k life and 30k with over 2k life. That means, rougly 40% of the player in endgame have more then 4k life. 4800 players have over 10k ES, while 9800 have over 8k ES. That means, half of the ES players in endgame play with less then 10k ES. Ofc you can argue ES users can take CI and MoM, but ofc life users can also take things like deflection, evasion, armour, armour for elemental damage, life regeneration, life recoup, life leech, life on hit, life on kill, life FLASK, block. I've read from enough people that they are like unkillable with their life characters and still clear screens easily.

I'm not saying life is equal to ES, but I dont see ES as overpowered as some do here. And that's why I'm saying life should receive a buff instead of nerfing ES. ES ist not an "auto-win", it's just an easier mechanic compared to others.

Youre shifting goal posts. And/or being disingenuous with life and evasion builds.

Already linked life builds above...

Just because they dont have 10k evasion and ES does not mean these arent massive ev/es builds.
10k is the upper range of evasion, with investment of a hybrid build you cant organize these by anything less than 10k look:

Anything higher than 6k armour/Ev on a hybrid ES build, is massive. Which there are thousands of people that have this outside of CI.

6k evasion vs T15 maps gives you about 20% chance to evade. It's not doing much. I wouldn't call it massive.

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SaiyanZ#3112 wrote:

6k evasion vs T15 maps gives you about 20% chance to evade. It's not doing much. I wouldn't call it massive.

6k evasion with nothing else was not said.


As well as giving you more than 20%.




Which funny enough was ANOTHER one of my hybrid builds that cleared all content. Ghost dance here just taking care of any troubles as well as convalescence ....

In my years of POE experience first game included , in this game sometimes you are getting one shotted no matter the defences or situations. I have 24k EHP usually i m good it takes 2-3 hits to take me down on t16+lvl1 juiced maps (i have no chaos res i stay away from chaos damage maps) but but sometimes i m getting randomly one shotted.

Note that i m deadeye and my windforce 10stacks are up , 3.9k raw hp with 230 es.

So in short in years and now i have no idea how player defences are working. One thing i m sure on POE2 blinding your enemies adds %20 ehp to your total defences.

So unless you are one shotting bosses or one tap to clear x10 mobs getting hit on blind usefull.


Regards.